Secrets of Successful Entrepreneurship

Rob McMullan and Trevor McKee introduce their new podcast - High Octane Friends  - and discuss secrets of successful entrepreneurship.

These two high octane friends with backgrounds in tech, finance and entrepreneurship discuss:

• Starting a Business with Zero Money
  
  
• The Importance of Simple, Serious Ideas
  
  
• How to Focus Your Thoughts and Efforts in Business
  
  
• Avoiding Over-Engineering and Seeking Feedback 
  
  
• Dropping Ego and Identifying Pain Points
  
  
• Embracing Boldness and Learning from Failure and Adversity (Including Rob Getting Stabbed in Tokyo)
  
  

This episode is for all the people who want to succeed as an entrepreneur.

The High Octane Friends podcast is where Rob McMullan & Trevor McKee discuss a variety of subjects in an authentic and unvarnished way.

Rob McMullan LinkedIn
linkedin.com/in/robmcmullan
Trevor McKee LinkedIn
linkedin.com/in/trevordmckee
High Octane Friends website
highoctanefriends.com

Transcript

00:00:00

Rob McMullan: welcome to the High Octane Friends podcast. I'm your co-host, Rob McMullen, aka Robbie Mack.  so a few things about me. Like like the venerable Basset Hound, I'm friendly and can sniff out good deals. I make friends everywhere pretty much. And well, like a bass hound, I can't program a computer worth a damn even though I worked a lot in in tech and finance.  I dislike immensely the words visionary, genius, and amazing lover. But,  I am what I am. U, my hobbies include watching TV, chasing waterfalls, and annoying my adolescent son.  yes, as he does to me.  and it'll become a little relevant later on. I I recall I wore a flat cap backwards while I was at Harvard to make you know really in an effort to make me appear smarter hide my insecurities smarter than the other grad students which I probably wasn't statistically anyway but then then again I don't know maybe I was smarter because just like Bill Gates and and Mark Zuckerberg I I dropped out.

00:01:06

Rob McMullan:  random fun fact about me. I once got drop kicked by a very muscular lesbian while dancing apparently badly in a Vancouver nightclub.  love affair for those of you who remember it, have fun memories of it.  so I don't know, maybe I wasn't being very bassad like that night and just can't remember. Probably drank too much.  I've more seriously started, managed, and revised multiple companies in North America and Asia. I've also helped some tech startups raise millions of dollars worth of investment capital. But I'd say I'm particularly proud of and actually amused by the fact that still this day the most money I've made today is from my very first company that I started in Tokyo where I lived for five years and at the time was the most expensive city in the world and did it with literally zero money.

Trevor McKee: Awesome.

Rob McMullan: So yeah, over to Trevor.

Trevor McKee: Hi there.  thanks very much,  Rob.  as for me,  my name is Trevor McKee.

00:02:03

Trevor McKee:  I originally here from South Africa.  and then moved to,  the United States and then to Canada, moving to Toronto 20 years ago and really loved it ever since. So some people say that my career spans my travels mimic a certain famous billionaire Elon Musk that the the the cache and that is rises and falls based on various social media posts but it's been an exciting time. I haven't moved lived in quite as many places as Rob, but it's been interesting. so I've I have many various hobbies. I'm kind of I like nerdy stuff like 3D printing, laser cutting, and building various things.  I've uh we've got a garden in my in our postage sty stamp- sized backyard that my wife and I like to get into to kind of get away from things and grow various veggies and stuff that we that my three kids consume. And and then I've also started a started doing some standup comedy sets at Open Mics around around Toronto.

00:03:23

Trevor McKee: and in other places and with varying degrees of success more as kind of a exercise to in in kind of public speaking and you know reaching out and approaching new people. So it's been exciting time there. and yeah and then on the on the work side I am a biomedical engineer by training. did my training at in the states undergrad at University of Buffalo PhD in bioengineering from MIT where I worked in a harve med school lab and did a lot of various activities in the space of sort of computer vision and image processing for for cancer research that I continued on in my work in Toronto and and have started a couple of startup companies over the course of my tenure and that we'll probably get into more as we go into the episode itself. So, yep.

Rob McMullan: Great. Yeah, super great. Thanks for that, Trevor.

00:04:32

Rob McMullan:  so let's get started on today's episode, shall we? which is well actually before I do that let me let me intro intro since this is our very first episode for this podcast which we've called high octane friends so Trevor and I talk about interesting topics from shallow to deep and try to do it in a in a non boring authentic and I think importantly unvarnished way and in the emphasis on friends and in later episodes we'll be interviewing some really smart interesting people as you can imagine. we're fortunate enough to have access to to some degree through our experience and our academic experiences. the topic of today's podcast though is about secrets of successful entrepreneurship. Sort of what to do and and what not to do. And there's a a lot to unpack there. So this theme I think will be one we repeat numerous times and is something we're both passionate about and have something to say about since we're at least a day and a half over over 20 now.

00:05:37

Trevor McKee: Okay.

Rob McMullan: so let's start by telling a few ge gems from our own experiences so far and we'll just kind of kind of be we we've got some things we want to we want to u glom on to here and share with you.  one that I think is really important, but I actually and I'll all I'll candid Oh, am I out of the frame?

Trevor McKee: Rob, maybe just move over just a tad because you're I think Yeah.

Rob McMullan: Oh, maybe I'm trying to hide from some of these things that I'm Yeah, we haven't quite worked out the bugs, folks.

Trevor McKee: Yeah, there we go. All good. All good. Camera shy.

Rob McMullan: So, please yeah, we promise it will at some point be exponential, but I don't know.

Trevor McKee: We're doing this live.

Rob McMullan: You might be here for a long year. yeah, I was just saying and in all canon that's something that I recognize is really really important but actually I didn't come across until very recently this particular quote from Charlie Mer who was sadly passed away just I think it was the end of last year Warren Buffett's business partner.

00:06:49

Trevor McKee: Mhm.

Rob McMullan: I actually liked him a lot better. Not that I dislike Warren Buffett. He does, but he had a he had a quote attributed to him that basically, you know, there's an old two-part success rule. one, take a simple basic idea and two, take it very seriously, which they both have. So I I think this is probably paramount to everything else we could say like and you don't have to reinvent the wheel, right? That's part of that. Take a simple basic idea. I think it's part probably of what a lot of the companies do that have difficulty with that are kind of in or inspired by Silicon Valley type businesses where and and I'm sure Trevor, you and I have seen a lot of this like people usually very smart people but constantly trying to outsmart others. you know, when you're on u you're in some of those rarified air rooms that we've been in over the years, I think that is a common thing, right?

00:07:56

Rob McMullan: But it's not

Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah. like trying to trying to build a super complicated you know widget that that depends on so many different things to succeed relative to a simple you know a simple thesis for a company which I saw one that was even just you know something as simple as sort of automating the the process of receipts and or or of of rebates. And so like if you order a certain number of things, you get this amount of rebate. And there's there was a guy I met in a in a startup that's doing very very well that's really just helping to optimize that across across all different contracts. And you know that's a simple idea, but it's but it it there's a big market demand for it. And I think that's that's certainly one of the one of the things is having something that that there's market demand for and not not sort of building some complicated overengineered solution. you know just speaking as sort of a tech people who's been around a lot of other tech people we get very enamored of our of our projects and tend to almost you know think without thinking oh maybe I should reach out and actually speak to someone who might use this and see if that's something they're actually interested in. So yeah.

00:09:18

Rob McMullan: Yeah. Well, you you touched on something very interesting beyond the complexity and then you know you want to see whether someone would actually be interested in this and so you go and you reach out to someone or some people and a lot of us as entrepreneurs are reluctant to do that.  and I think part of it is because to be an entrepreneur or start something, it takes a certain amount of ego. You know, it doesn't mean you're egoomaniac, but it it you know, you tend and you tend to fall in love with your own ideas.

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: So, you don't really want to be bashed by someone else. And so, we tend not to seek out feedback. That's a big mistake. So, yeah, I think two things there.

Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah.

Rob McMullan: So, don't it's not necessary to over complicate it. And,  you know, you want to get some feedback on there. You want you want to put your ego aside. It's kind of like when you go to the gym and I've increasingly realized like you know this some of this just comes with experience aka age.

00:10:13

Rob McMullan: you know working out and trying to build muscle and you know you kind of want to be as you get older especially be more efficient about it. But like I wish I'd known when I was 18 or like 14 when or something when I first started working out like you know when you're really young you try to as a guy at least you try to do the macho thing. You lift as much as possible especially when you're in the gym right? And now I realize, you know, I mean, the internet's great particularly YouTube, isn't it? For you can see all these videos on these guys have like got amazing development and you go back, you can see a lot of these videos from the time of Arnold and they're saying stuff like, you know, drop your ego like you don't need to have to lift big weights.  so I this is kind of a similar sort of thing. You don't have to over complicate things. You don't have to be macho. find something as a painoint.

00:11:03

Rob McMullan: You mentioned the thing was this what was that idea that that they're doing really well and it's something to do with like yeah well that sounds like it would be a you know

Trevor McKee: Yeah. Oh, the Yeah. automating it's like automating contracts. So, this one was automating rebate between people that are doing particular transactions. Yeah.

Rob McMullan: a big hairy thing to to a problem for many or like expenses and stuff. I hate doing expenses.

Trevor McKee: Yes. Exactly. Exactly.

Rob McMullan: It's just yeah in the wing. So yeah, that that that makes a lot of sense that example that doesn't surprise me at all. So there you go. so don't over complicate it. Don't think you're too smart. Don't think you're too strong. Like you know drop your ego in other words. it very seriously and talk to people. So you know you could just take that

Trevor McKee: But I I think I think that's also balanced, right?

00:11:53

Trevor McKee: Because another thing we sort of talked about was the importance of having a like a bold vision, right? And I think to hop around a little bit, but you know at the same time you don't want to be building some niche thing for a small market because again that's not going to be something you know that well certainly once you get to the raising money stage you know and that's something that you you've got a lot of experience with and I've I've done a little bit on it's you know the the people that are going to be investing in you or your or your board of directors or whoever is involved with the company that you're building. they're going to want to see is there a big market there. And that comes along with kind of having a bold vision, you know, and and I think I I've always actually been surprised I've been pleasantly surprised by people that I see that are pitching something that like I'm going to revolutionize kind of, you know, this this area or something like that.

00:12:59

Trevor McKee: And it's like, "Oh, wow. That's actually bolder than I initially thought." You know, and and and I think we we often can get get in our own way and sort of like, "Well, I'm going to carve out this little niche for myself." And you know, that's not necessarily always good. Sometimes you do want to have a you know a big bold challenge that you're targeting because you know like okay yeah it's going to be hard but everything in life is hard and you want to pick the right sorts of hard problems to go after to really make sure that that you know you're you're making a difference. So

Rob McMullan: Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot in there. I mean, the, you know, the sort of dichotomy between don't go niche and go really massive. So, what do you do? I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with going niche if you're you're fully aware of where you are on on in terms of your business journey.

00:13:53

Rob McMullan: Like if you never want to take outside investment particularly from institutional investors like like real VC or people who are kind of serial angel investors who know the drill and and will really want to see a big

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: total addressable market, you know, where you can really be bold and really go after something really big. I mean, they want to really hit it out of the park, right? They're they're kind of throwing darts.  you know, they may do a hundred more investments and they know that only maybe one or two will pay off. And so,  it's it's a different thing to deal with those kinds of that kind of investor.  really have to talk talk it up big.

Trevor McKee: Mhm.

Rob McMullan: I don't I don't necessarily think there's anything wrong with going niche, but  you have to be  it's it's a different thing, right?

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: You're not going to take outside investment. I'm assuming outside. but

Trevor McKee: Right. Right.

00:14:45

Trevor McKee: Yeah. There there's absolutely there's nothing wrong with taking a a you know a a business model that you know works and that that works well but that might not scale or that that sort of thing. But I think it's real and it really it does come down to kind of what you're interested in. You know, I think I I had a conversation with a a friend of mine who was a CEO of a startup that I was a part of and she was struggling with this exact problem of you know is is this a good sort of lifestyle company that you know can that that can grow at a regular pace or do we want to really go for investors and with all of the you know the the additional challenges that come with you know shooting for a larger thing and that there's not one right answer to that. It really does depend on what you're doing and yeah and there's multiple different ways of of slicing things, but certainly yeah

00:15:45

Rob McMullan: Yeah. Unfortunately, the investment community over the years has kind of made it into this porative thing, you know, niche or they they call that a lifestyle business. they mean it as a kind of insult, you know, like why would you do that? But of course, the success rate in Silicon Valley is actually really quite low and famously when you know, venture capital was really flowing sort of I guess before the end of 2022 or so in and around there. then before that time you know they they really they really had a lot of businesses that were just pouring money into and were endlessly unprofitable and and you got some of these people who are running really lean lifestyle businesses, niche businesses and it and it and it does well. So I think that's okay. But at the same time, I do think it's it's really valuable to have a a bold vision and and that's so that you don't kind of hem yourself in and you don't think too small, assuming you you want to you do want to do something big, but you have to have a big enough market.

00:16:59

Rob McMullan: And I I think your goal should be big. like especially if you're young and and frankly speaking by young I mean anyone under 65 which come as a surprise but like it was Gary Vaynerchuk actually recently really inspired me I saw him in a couple places talking about how you've got time you've got time like people that are like 40 50 60 whatever I don't have time left but well you know news flash people are living a lot longer and you know you maintain your I think you can do it. So you don't limit your vision either in terms of thinking nah it's too late for me or you know I'm just going to do this little small thing. I think that's very limiting and I think it all it's almost u it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy if you set your goals too low. You stay within that framework. And so I think yeah that that's that's valid for sure.

Trevor McKee: Is isn't there isn't there a saying I'm going to butcher it, but it was sort of like if you you shoot for you know what's what's worse to shoot for the stars and miss or to you know shoot for the moon and and make it or something like that, you know.

00:18:09

Rob McMullan: Yes.

Trevor McKee: and yeah, and and that I I agree with you. absolutely. But the other thing is also you can't kind of boil the ocean, right? There is a bit of strategy to how you roll out and it's not that you need to start off right away with I'm going to conquer the world, right? could be well I'm going to capture this market and then I'm going to you know like expand here and here here down the line but but really thinking through that plan and having it mapped out like either internally for yourself as well as for your company helps to establish that kind of vision for where you're going and then and I think it's never too never too early to kind of have that sort of exercise because otherwise you can be sort of get so busy in the day-to-day of of of business that I think that's one of the things I've noticed a lot is that we don't take enough time to really step back for a second and say, "Okay, let's check in here and sort of think about things at sort of a, you know, at a 10,000 foot level as opposed to just just tackling the next thing that's right in front of you." So

00:19:17

Rob McMullan: That's super important and I know I have been guilty of that before and you know you want to not get caught up so operationally that you get into that you know you want to work on your business not just in your business and stepping and yeah getting that get perspective as my dad would say.

Trevor McKee: Yes.

Rob McMullan: and and I was going to say to you though getting back about to the the big vision kind of thing and doing stuff. Yeah. You don't want to blow the ocean but you know it does help to have a sufficiently large goal vision whatever. And I I'd ask you a question Trevor on that. How do you eat an elephant? Well, I mean, it's kind of proverbial now. One bite at a time, right?

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: So, you know, step by step, yes, you're not boiling.

Trevor McKee: Right. Right.

Rob McMullan: Yeah, boiling the ocean obviously is is a step too far. but you know having something large particularly if you a really want to make a ton of money if that's really your goal and I think that's fine and or which is almost synonymous certainly you're if you have investors institutional investors they will want a market size that's big enough potentially so you kind of have to say hey I'm I'm going to do something I'm going to eat an elephant but yeah how to eat it one

00:20:37

Rob McMullan: step at a time. yeah, what else can we say?

Trevor McKee: Mhm.

Rob McMullan: oh, money maybe on on that on that topic. We touched on money a little bit there. We talked about it in in the sense of of goals and stuff, but I think money is very interesting.

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: because as Silicon Valley has has told us now in the last several years especially is like some of these companies, they just they threw so much money at them and yet they haven't made money and they go under, right? So it is it's it's not s it's neither necessary nor sufficient. And I would go so far as to say that you know money can oftenimes ensure your failure. I'm a big believer that that old adage that necessity is the mother of invention and that it drives it it drives thinking.

Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, definitely.

Rob McMullan: Yeah. So I'll I'll let you interject there because yeah see what see what you think about that.

00:21:37

Rob McMullan: But I think that's a that's a really important point to keep in mind. you know if you have too much money you became you become unresourceful.

Trevor McKee: Yes. Yes. Yes. You you'll sometimes you can burn I've certainly seen this happen that companies will get this new round of investment and then all of a sudden they go off in like six different directions and then you know nothing really clicks. And I remember having a investor come speak to us after they just raised after my startup had just raised and and they said, "Look, I don't care if you're not profitable for the next, you know, couple of months or whatever, but what I want to see is is I want to see, you know, that direction towards kind of getting the the long-term, you know, hitting hitting out of the park in in the longer term." And and so sometimes yeah absolutely scrging around and I mean I've I've done a number of things in terms of like making making my own conference swag at my kitchen table you know before going to a

00:22:49

Rob McMullan: That's it.

Trevor McKee: conference and rather than paying for that big conference booth that's that that cost so much I just turned myself into a gorilla booth and I was walking around with like flyers and t-shirts and just like you making it happen myself without having to to kind of you know sit there at a booth and and that that that worked. I mean that that was quite successful kind of experience. So you know there's something to be said for kind of just the the the hustle that you get from like oh my god we need to do something here.

Rob McMullan: Yeah, it's it's I I mean this is hyperbolic, but it's almost a a lost art, the hustle, because especially when you have a lot of money, right?

Trevor McKee: So

Rob McMullan: either you can afford to selfund or you get big investment. And so what do people do? It's like, oh well, let's just throw it at a bunch of Google ads. It's really easy to to, you know, put that all down the drain really quickly.

00:23:42

Rob McMullan: But doing what you do, I'm a big believer, too, and you need to circulate the percolate. Get out there and then they have this Didn't it was it them that also had like something to do with the

Trevor McKee: wasn't there there's that that apocryphal story of like Airbnb And like the way that initially they literally just like sold sold stuff and they were like packing stuff in in shipping box. I forget what was there selling but like you know literally packing.

Rob McMullan: cereal? They made up cereal boxes.

Trevor McKee: Yes. Yes. Yes. It must have been cereal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Rob McMullan: Yeah. No. And I think well that that kind of folds back into part of the bold vision. It's not just the size of the market and the product and and service what you're trying to go after, but it's also how you do it. And you know, it's not just like let's get a bunch of money and like blow it all on Google ads and stuff like that.

00:24:30

Rob McMullan: No, let's do things that are high impact and are memorable.

Trevor McKee: right?

Rob McMullan: And there's a good example.

Trevor McKee: Yep.

Rob McMullan: And

Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah. And I I remember someone at a conference was saying like the the booths that he saw were successful had absolutely nothing to like they had they created buzz right in the conference and it was like lit literally like oh go over there they're having this like these robots fight each other or something you know like they would they would have some some kind of uh competition happening at the booth and it to generated

Rob McMullan: Yeah.

Trevor McKee: buzz and people came by And while they were there, they learned about the company. So, you know, it's there there's there's multiple ways to kind of like generate buzz and publicity and and and it doesn't doesn't have to follow and thinking outside the box, you know, sometimes can can reward you just because everyone else is doing the same, you know, well, we're going to hand out pens or whatever you know, stickers at the at the at the conference.

00:25:33

Trevor McKee: So, yeah.

Rob McMullan: Well, because it's seen as the easy and the safe thing to do. And again, especially if you have a lot of money, it's easy just to do the tried and true.

Trevor McKee: Mhm.

Rob McMullan: And I see it with sales teams, too.

Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah.

Rob McMullan: And you know, sales leaders should know, the good ones anyway, should now have learned better than this that, you know, they're still doing things. Well, let's just hire a big sales team and let's get everybody calling and emailing. It's like, you know, I I talked to people like my wife who's a seale executive at at a big company. And I I I talked to her recently about this and I thought it was very interesting. I said, like, what what do you do when salespeople reach out to you? She I never even see their emails. like she's basically told her IT department like make it so this stuff never comes to me and it's like well that's that was very eye openening like I kind of knew this but it's like these people are not getting your messages anymore they're not getting your emails they're not getting your calls it's time to do something differently think out of the box think outside of the triangle I would go so far as to say certainly outside

00:26:27

Trevor McKee: Right. Yep.

Rob McMullan: of your circle of friends and you know not to pillar always Silicon Valley but like it is pretty easy to take the piss out of them as the English And you know there's a lot of group think that goes on there. And so you would do well I think as an entrepreneur certainly in in tech but anywhere I guess to think outside of the box and to don't just do that same old thing again you know don't

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: do the Google ads and you by the way I don't know if it's ever dawned on anybody that you know one of the biggest companies there in Silicon Valley Google and also MA it is very much in their interest to have promoted this idea that look just get a bunch of money and you know throw a bunch of ads and do traditional marketing think why? Because of course they make more money. So just as a personal example, I people who know me know that for years like kind of a tried and trueue.

00:27:25

Rob McMullan: I love dimensional mail which seems counterintuitive in the in the in the day and age where like there's so many tech tools that you can use to communicate but it's kind of because of that and increasingly you get this kind of overload of noise of of all these things like how many LinkedIn messages do you get all the time and you get these and now you get automated crap and emails and like I'm just tuning it out and like my wife said like she has people to actually make sure she doesn't see this and so for years I've done stuff like like I will send a pair of socks off to somebody.

Trevor McKee: Mhm.

Rob McMullan: It's like you know I promise to knock your socks off if if you meet with me.

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: I do things like but you know I I I will literally I I did this recently actually. I re-recorded John Lennon's Imagine with my own lyrics relevant to something I was pitching and sent it off in an email as an MP4 to them.

00:28:25

Rob McMullan: and they loved it. So, whatever it is that your imagination can do, like I have that bold vision, like you said, I think that's super important. I I love that old Roman phrase like fortune favors the bull. Don't ask me for the Latin. I can't remember, but I I literally had it painted on my office wall. Not this beautiful one, which I have have not yet done because we recently moved about two years ago. But I I did some painting of slogans that I loved all over my office wall in my basement. And one of them was fortune favors the bold to my wife's horror when she when she came down there.

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: And then yeah, I had to paint it all. This was the stupid thing. I painted it all on dark green on a light background. And when we moved, of course, I had to paint over it, but I had to do like four coats.

Trevor McKee: Close.

Rob McMullan: Oh man, that was hard on the back.

00:29:14

Trevor McKee: Well, there we go.

Rob McMullan: Yeah, sometimes you gota Yeah, like I believed it so much I put in dark paint on.

Trevor McKee: Fortune and and paint favors. There you go.

Rob McMullan: So yeah, I I I think being bold, being creative, super super important.

Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah. No, I think there's there's a lot creativity is is a huge component, you know, and and that it's that'll be it'll be helpful to you no matter what you're sort of trying to do, you know, creative ways of of trying to figure out, you know, as you I love your customer engagement. The the socks is is fantastic.

Rob McMullan: It works.

Trevor McKee: or

Rob McMullan: Like I I basically met a lot of seale executives in Toronto in the financial community like the banks and that through that very method and you know if you think about it for a second like okay it gets through I have a whole way of doing if if you really want to know like you can you can send me a message listeners and I can I can tell you how I actually do it.

00:30:14

Rob McMullan: There's a whole way of doing it and it's really designed to get through the the gatekeeper, right? So that they think it's something that they should pass on and then open it and has a big effect and it's memorable and then they want to reach out to you and they want to meet you.

Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah.

Rob McMullan: That's not easy today. so you want you want to make that you want to make it work and you know I think of Richard Branson the founder of Virgin. I I love that guy and a lot of things he's sort of the king of all these great PR stunts.

Trevor McKee: Mhm.

Rob McMullan: you know he's famous for saying like you know he's bold like screw it let's do it right like whatever what's the worst that can happen kind of deal and then he he he's done all sorts of crazy PR stunts so I think that's what you got to do like and and and that's fun make it fun like spend some time and right I figure as long as you're not hurting anybody and you're getting

00:31:01

Trevor McKee: Oh, yeah. Yeah. And

Rob McMullan: attention you know you're not showing up to a a conference in Las Vegas naked anyone can get attention by just standing there naked take it. But I I I don't I don't know if anybody wants to see you or me, you know, kind of show up show.

Trevor McKee: They'll get they'll get get your attention in the short term and get you get you a long list of legal troubles further down the line.

Rob McMullan: Yeah. Yeah. That Yeah. You might get attention for the wrong reasons.

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: but you know, further on this idea of you know success for entrepreneurs, you know, what works, what doesn't work.

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: In no particular order, I just kind of jotted these things down. Concentrated effort, I think, is super super important, right? You you can't have a million things going on because take it very seriously.

Trevor McKee: Yeah. Well, that's that's part two of the munger thing. Take it very seriously, right?

00:31:56

Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah.

Rob McMullan: Yeah. Concentrate your effort, work hard.  I'd say that staying focused is super important. Like your success as an entrepreneur will depend to a great degree on what you focus on, right?

Trevor McKee: Yes.

Rob McMullan: and to the degree that you do focus on that. So, what what do you think about that Trevor? anything to add about focus because you know I think you and I kind of think in similar ways like I I don't have your technical brain like with engineers brain kind of thing but like I do come from a family of engineers but my dad was just to give you a little flavor of who I am you know to the extent that I am my father's son he started out as an artist as a painter and then decided I think wisely that he wasn't likely to make much money off that so he went off to engineering school and became a mechanical engineer. So like he has a bit of both but I think he was a very focused person but understood from the art side that you got to get back at a perspective.

00:33:02

Rob McMullan: So we're you and I was going to say that they're kind of similar and it's like sometimes it's hard to contain the ideas, right? It's great you have all these bold ideas but you don't want to have so much.

Trevor McKee: Yes.

Rob McMullan: At some point you got to focus. Do you have anything to say about that?

Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah. No, we that that's come up over and over again of in in my various work that that you know I think in one case we were finding that most of our revenue was coming from only a subset of pro of you know kind of um service related projects that we were producing for people and and sort of leaning into that and saying okay well why don't take that that offering and what can we do to boost, you know, the the signal on that offering as opposed to kind of keeping a wide spray of like, oh, we can do everything here and diluting kind of the the efforts that that could be generated from or the the revenues could be generated from that one, you know, seller that was doing quite well.

00:34:11

Trevor McKee: So, you want to, you know, you definitely want to focus and prioritize. but I think well I I really like the sort of the the Google approach of like they give their people 20% of their time or like one day a week to sort of play around and try new things, you know, and that's where Gmail came from is that it was some guys sort of side project that that they worked on and it turned out to be, you know, something that like everybody uses now. So and and and so I think it's there's a balance you know of of kind of but but there there's a balance of you know you can focus you know like you you do want to spend most of your time focused on the things that are going to drive your business forward you know and and whatever those things are or whatever the bottlenecks are you want to sort of be aware of them and sort of be monitoring you know as well. I think that's something that you don't always kind of think about but like well where are our efforts going right now and are they going to the right places you know like do we I think we're as as a service- based company my company now um we're balancing kind of like bringing in clients with being able to sh making sure that we can deliver and get results back out to those

00:35:35

Trevor McKee: clients you know and and and so I think that requires a certain amount of focus on the existing processes, making sure that we're getting stuff through rapidly enough. and then and then also, you know, making sure that the funnel is open for new clients to come in and keeping those, you know, balanced together. But Exactly.

Rob McMullan: And you're not saying in in you know the need to focus that that does away completely with that precludes any kind of experimentation. It's just that when you experiment, you don't necessarily want it to take over everything and you want to measure it has an effect.

Trevor McKee: Yeah. And Yes. Yes. Yes. And and so sort of having processes in place to measure kind of where your efforts are going also is a useful way because sometimes you know like the week can pass and like oh my god I was putting up fires this whole week but I don't know I don't know where the week went like you know um even sort of systems that you can have in place that even non you know automatically sort of log certain actions and that kind of thing.

00:36:43

Trevor McKee: it it can be very helpful because you can go back and start to get metrics of like well here's here's where the efforts went and here's where the success was and like I said you can start to then lean into those those those business drivers that can really help that are helping to helping you to get closer to kind of you know making sure the bottom line's doing well. So yeah.

Rob McMullan: Yeah, you you reminded me something about that in some of it is is looking back maybe weekly on what progress you've made you so you keep yourself bring yourself back on track more realistically. Especially for those people who are creative and have a tendency to think outside the box and so you got a million idea. I never have any shortage of ideas. What I have problems with are making sure I have a process in place andor whatever that process or nonprocess is I bring it back to center line and veer off and get back.

Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, you Yeah.

00:37:44

Rob McMullan: reminded me, you know, a concept that they they kind of creatively swiped from total quality management which is like you know Kaizen the idea that how how could you improve you know 1% a day for example and Toyota become a great car company just by thinking how are all these things that what are all these things that we can do better and then just do it.

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: It's like one little bit every day. And that commitment to getting better and of course that that presumes that that requires that you measure and track.

Trevor McKee: Mhm.

Rob McMullan: I think that's super super super important.

Trevor McKee: Mhm.

Rob McMullan: but something I'm not that's not my strength, but I I know I need to do it. Maybe because you have that engineering brain, you're you're more aware of it even though I think

Trevor McKee: Yeah. Well, yeah, I was going to say you're speaking my language with processes and that's that's absolutely something I I always want to make sure like it if I'm doing this thing now and I'm going to be doing it again, you know, uh two months from now.

00:38:49

Trevor McKee: Well, or on a or at least on some sort of regular basis. Let's get that down in some sort of document that, you know, says this is how I did this thing because, you know, when I go to pick it up again, I'm gonna forget, you know, what I did. And,  I think my my,  my dad told me a story about my grandfather who was a successful entrepreneur,  who,  he liked to only,  touch a piece of paper once. And so, you would deal with a piece of paper and then it was done. And so, you know, like he he sort of applied took that approach across multiple things. And I think it's it's definitely useful to to be able to yeah, as you say, sort of keep have processes in place. but not be you know but yes ha have that right sort of balance of of not being overly married to that process but you know like in the absence of something let's get something down as an initial step and we can always iterate on it right even if it's even if it's just I've sent an email out to a couple of people to to try and track down some future customers well that's that's a process and and how do we refine that and how do we improve that because at some point you're going to you're going to be growing, right?

00:40:09

Trevor McKee: And that's something that I notice a lot is is onboarding new people you know to your organization. there's a whole bunch of you you want to get, you know, all the stuff that's kind of just floating around in your head in terms of like, well, this is how I did this thing. you want that documented in some form so that it's kind of like, hey, look at this. This is how I was doing these things. and and then they can you know learn from that and you don't spend as much time in kind of in the you know in meetings kind of getting them up to speed and you can also um you know uh systematize it and get it out to more people as well.

Rob McMullan: He did.

Trevor McKee: So yeah, yeah.

Rob McMullan: That was a a word my dad would always say to me. So I could I can remember he's gone now, but I can remember when I was a kid often like I'd be shoveling this the driveway of snow and I'd be like, "Okay, I'll go over here and then I'll go over here and do whatever." Like

00:41:05

Rob McMullan: just like wherever my energy takes me and I it rings in my ear. I often hear my dad saying this like be systematic. I don't want to hear systematic all the time, but it's like it was sage advice. Be systematic. you know, have perspective on things. put them in in and for those of us who speak British English pronunciation like Canadians and and Brits a process right have a process on anything that's valuable and measure and iterate and even you know people

Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

Rob McMullan: who are creative and nonlinear thinkers which tends to be more like me I I think it's important that because you may come up with something you may do something amazing and if you don't capture it it's lost you

Trevor McKee: Yes. Yes. Yes.

Rob McMullan: you probably never do it again. It's like how I cook, which is which is not the right way to cook because like literally every single time I very rarely cooked anything off a recipe.

00:42:03

Trevor McKee: Mhm.

Rob McMullan: and it's always just okay, what do we have? I'll just make it up and create. And you know, maybe they love it. I am a pretty good cook, but it's like my family will ask me, can you cook that again? It's like, nope, that's a one-off thing. You'll never get it again because I don't know what that what was in it. So obviously that's not the right way to do, but I am in the moment when I'm cooking. So that's a little different from entrepreneurship and being successful there. But I do think you don't beat yourself up if you're too much off the path.

Trevor McKee: Yeah, but there's I think there's elements, you know, and and and I think well and and then another thing you said that was very important that I just captured was that I I knowing what you're not good at and kind of like understanding yourself as you go through this process is also very very very important. you know, so I know that I'm bad at certain elements of whether it's, you know, kind of keeping track of stuff.

00:42:50

Rob McMullan: Yes.

Trevor McKee: I know I can do a lot of stuff you know, kind of at the same time, but I'm bad at sort of you know, certain elements of like I need to sit down, I need to do this, I need to do that, you know. So so I think I think making making sure you re you understand and particularly when it comes to starting a company with multiple people that you want to you understand several things of of about both yourself and of your team.  you know, knowing what you're good at and what you're not good at helps you to ask for help in those areas where you're where you don't have strength and that helps to you know make sure that kind of overall you guys are functioning effectively and you know and and and that has a number of benefits and and not only that but also kind of knowing your you know how your personalities mesh or not mesh. Hopefully, you've known each other for some time before starting the company.

00:44:04

Trevor McKee: but you know that that also is very important for make you know setting yourself up for success basically.

Rob McMullan: Yeah, I I would I would just add on to that that has inspired some some thoughts about how true that is, you know, to be able to identify to first of all in yourself by yourself identify your weaknesses and strengths to the extent that you already know them. But there are some strengths and weaknesses you probably are not aware of that you have.

Trevor McKee: Absolutely.

Rob McMullan: And so, you know, if you're in a business with employees or particularly co-founders, early employees, I think it's really important to be candid with each other.

Trevor McKee: Yes.

Rob McMullan: I don't agree with this idea of radical cander because I think that like it probably ends up in f****** fights. pardon my swahily but so candidness to the extent that you can help convey to the other what what you think their strengths and weaknesses are such that a not necessarily so much that they can improve them.

Trevor McKee: Absolutely.

Rob McMullan: It's like, okay, you're not good at this, so like this might help you, but I think you should do this, right?

00:45:06

Rob McMullan: They may not be in the right role or be doing the right tasks, so maybe you should do this and not this, but you know, I can do this, but not that. You have to be able to ID that and and and to be able to identify those strengths and weaknesses and convey them then requires candidness which kind of comes back this seems like the theme of the day to me Trevor on this episode is is is boldness right your boldness in your communication both to your wouldbe investors your wouldbe clients your wouldbe co-workers and and and and I think it's very relevant to

Trevor McKee: medium. Yeah.

Rob McMullan: the idea of being able to identify your strengths and weaknesses and therefore aligning yourself on the right parts of your business. And you don't want you want the best people in the company working on the things that they're best at, the person who's best at it.

Trevor McKee: Yes.

Rob McMullan: And not I've actually seen that somewhere on the internet and it is actually pretty cool.

Trevor McKee: Exactly.

00:45:58

Trevor McKee: Yes. Yes. Yeah. What's that that saying of you you know Einstein if you teach teach a goldfish to climb a tree, you know, like you don't want to spend all your time teaching goldfish to climb a tree or something. yeah.

Rob McMullan: I have a I I have a suspicion it's not real, but hey um

Trevor McKee: but yeah, just to second sort of the idea of well of of of being candid with one another and potentially also, you know, with the understanding that there's there's ways of being candid that you know, don't necessarily hurt people's feelings.

Rob McMullan: I'd like to say I really I've said this for many years.

Trevor McKee: And I like that phrase.

Rob McMullan: I I wonder how you feel about this term just to that I think it's important for people to be candid but to be diplomatically assertive.

Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah, that's a good phrase.

Rob McMullan: Yeah.

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: Yeah. Because you know there too many there are too many radically candid assholes out there.

00:47:06

Rob McMullan: I really need to find more words other than the occasional swear word. I do it too much. So I apologize to my listeners in Utah.

Trevor McKee: We we'll we'll figure it.

Rob McMullan: Oh,

Trevor McKee: Um No, but yeah, you know, I think there's there's ways of and and it's kind of like, hey, look, it's kind of what you said, you know, about well not necessarily that like maybe this isn't a good fit for you, but you know, you could be working on this thing instead. And you know like there there's there's definitely there's a way of approaching it but I think you don't want what you what you don't want to get trapped in is the the trap of sort of being

Rob McMullan: heat.

Trevor McKee: so polite that and I mean this is a very Canadian thing as well right is uh the one of the big problems with Canadian being you know doing business in Canada is that people will will yes will yes you to death but never actually commit to you know whether it's a sale or something else.

00:48:05

Trevor McKee: And I'd much rather get a no in the first meeting than to be strung on for, you know, for meetings and meetings and meetings just to just to get that no at the end of the day because you we're never really interested, you know. I think and and that that goes for for dealing working with co-workers, too. I'd much rather hear a criticism so long as it's kind of, you know, not mean-spirited, but but uh you know, uh identifies a flaw that's that's happening. I'd ra much rather hear it sooner than for it to build up into something big that um is a big blow up later, you know, like tell me about it now and and I can correct my my behavior or what have you.

Rob McMullan: Yeah, you just you just reminded me.

Trevor McKee: What's up?

Rob McMullan: I know you said it's it's Canadian politeness. I don't I don't necessarily think Canadians are all that polite, but you know or or direct and blunt as say the Americans or the Koreans are.

00:48:59

Rob McMullan: And I can say that because I'm married to a Korean and I studied a lot about Korean history and lived in Korea for a while. and there's a lot of goodness to that. But you know the Canadians and and even more so Japanese where I also live. I lived in Tokyo for for five years audience. and so Japanese people are kind of famous for wanting to avoid any kind of conflict and I think it holds them back. there are many many many times I've been in meetings it's like yeah okay that's really great like a pitching them something it's like you know what let's meet again in a couple of weeks and then we meet

Trevor McKee: Amen.

Rob McMullan: again and it just goes on and I remember very clearly there was a fellow a Japanese fellow he's an executive who was for a now defunct airline AOM French airlines right it was tried to be a competitor to

Trevor McKee: Right.

Rob McMullan: Air France and at that time I was working in a media company my my day job this might even before I started my business there.

00:49:57

Rob McMullan: And I went I was trying to sell him advertising and he's like, "Yep, I like it." So, you know, we had a couple of niche English language publications and shout out to Tokyo Weekender and Tokyo American Magazine and so trying to sell this to them, I thought this would be great for AOM because they're selling to expats, right, who are going back and forth. And so he decided he's like, "Okay, let's do it." And he literally said to me, "How's that for like something like you know like an American style American style way of doing it?"

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: I like, "Yeah, I love it." Because he was very fully aware of the kind of hemming and the hawing the high high. You know, hi does not mean really yes. It means yes. I hear what you're saying.

Trevor McKee: Right, right, right, right.

Rob McMullan: So, you know, I don't want to pillar the Japanese because I I love Japan, but you know, all all of us different cultures have good things, but yeah, that is not as great for the Japanese directness.

00:50:47

Trevor McKee: Yep.

Rob McMullan: They can learn a lot from the Koreans. they'll probably all hate me now for that, but whatever. this is great. Like I I do you have anything more to really add to this one? Like like I said at the outset, I think this one talking about success and entrepreneurship and there's so much just you and I have learned. We'll also have some people on the podcast in the future entrepreneurs that will be able to give so many great stories and things. But do you want to add a story or two before we kind of and maybe there's a moral in that be before we bring it to an end and I can maybe dig into my own as well. Any come to

Trevor McKee:  Yeah. Well, I think I' I've I've said a few ones that I've been involved in. trying to think if there's well one for example it's not a very long story but just maybe along the lines of being bold you know was that I was connected with I I've usually been pretty open with like connecting with people on LinkedIn and there was one connection that I thought well why don't I just reach out and say hey I'm going to be at this conference you know maybe we could meet up and and that was you know that one step.

00:52:07

Trevor McKee: Like, yes, it was kind of a little outside of my comfort zone because I didn't really know this guy aside from just seeing his posts every once in a while.  but it was not Elon Musk.

Rob McMullan: So, was it Elon? Wasn't Elon Musk your No.

Trevor McKee: I'm not a not a I don't think he even uses LinkedIn most likely, but he but no, I I I reached out to him and we connected at the conference and then that turned into kind of like one of our best clients that we've had with with my company over several years now. And and so that one thing was, you know, kind of really instrumental in and and it was a combination of sort of like keeping keeping those relationships warm, you know, which I think we haven't talked about, but that's a whole other conversation in itself of of just keeping in touch with people.

Rob McMullan: Yeah.

Trevor McKee: Hey, how's it going? you know, and and and this one kind of like, oh, it'd be great to connect with you at the conference turned into like, oh well, we've got all of these things we we need help with.

00:53:06

Trevor McKee: And and you know, it was really an amazing kind of uh connection that that turned into valuable business. So, Right.

Rob McMullan: You just reminded me of something. We need to talk about this on a future episode, but I'll mention it now. There's a couple of things here. Hey, is like having the courage, the boldness again, and and like like Branson says, screw it. Let's do it. What's the worst that can happen? So, he thinks ill of you. Who cares, right? is he going to come knock down your door and like tell you off like so what so yeah be bold in your communications and how you do it whatever but I was thinking this fellow this book many years ago when I lived in New York City and I still remember you know in the day and age where we still have lots of like you go to the news stand or whatever and you'd have newspapers and magazines. I still remember this thing and it was the title I don't remember what the I think the name of the publication was business 2.0 know, which I'm sure is long gone now, but it was a picture of this fellow and it was like America's best networker.

00:54:04

Rob McMullan: I'm like, okay, I want to know, right? Am I I like to network, but I want what is this guy doing?

Trevor McKee: Okay. Yeah.

Rob McMullan: And so, he was the youngest ever chief marketing officer of a Fortune 500 company, aka Deote, or specifically Deote. And his name is Keith Ferazzi or Ferrari. he lives in LA. He's an American guy. maybe it's because obvious obviously he also has Italian roots unless he's adopted with that surname but you know he he wrote this book called Never Eat Lunch Alone. It was a bestseller. So some of you on this podcast ultimately may have heard of it and he's all about that like how do you network and how do you reach out to people?

Trevor McKee: You won't.

Rob McMullan: Do you reach out to everyone? A big thing I remember he was really doing was he would hold these dinner parties. We got to do some dinner parties.

Trevor McKee: Yeah, totally. Yeah.

Rob McMullan: My wife's in LA every other month, so every other week almost.

00:54:52

Rob McMullan: So like maybe when she's away because she's a total introvert. So have little intimate dinner parties at at my place or your place or elsewhere.

Trevor McKee: All

Rob McMullan: because that's a big way in which he did it. And I remember back in the day where you know on first class where before the day and age of the pods, right, you like sit next to somebody if you were lucky enough to to fly in first

Trevor McKee: right.

Rob McMullan: class. He was a consultant at Harvard Business School alum and so he was a consultant I guess at started at Deote and one of the ways in which he built himself up in that his profile was he would every single time he flew he would like either through the points he'd accumulated or like throwing his own money in there he would make sure as much as possible to fly first class and then he would talk to these people and then things like that and being bold like you're talking about sitting next to a Fortune 500 CEO and you're you're really young person.

00:55:50

Rob McMullan: You might be intimidated by that, but that old adage of like, hey, you know, at the end of the day, they still put at the start of the day, they put their their pants on one leg at a time. I know I know several billionaires, you know, a couple of them pretty well. And that's absolutely 100% true. So, like be bold, get out there. But that's a good book if you want to look it up.  never eat lunch alone.

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: That tells you everything. So, it goes back to something I said earlier I really love. You got to prickate to circulate and be bold. Do it. Good. Next. Next conference you don't go to, take Trevor's advice. Yeah. Get get your own t-shirts made up. Right, Trevor?

Trevor McKee: Yeah, totally, totally. And I mean that that was actually the reason I started standup comedy was at being at this huge international conference like you know 20,000 attendees and just feeling intimidated like by going up to

00:56:39

Rob McMullan: Mhm.

Trevor McKee: booths of like potential competitors and saying hey you know like is there a way that we can work together kind of thing. and and kind of having enough self-nowledge to say, okay, well, that's something I need to actually work on, you know, because I can't run a successful business if I'm intimidated to sort of approach people. So, so that in my head at least turned into well, how do I overcome, you know, like uh the the kind of self, you know, h how do I overcome sort of being inhibited? And the thought was like, well, try standup comedy because it's something I've been a fan of for like my entire life. And and just thought that, you know, well, why don't I if I put myself out there and what's the worst you can do in standup comedy?

Rob McMullan: I think that's a very useful frame of thinking.

Trevor McKee: Well, you can b Yes.

Rob McMullan: What's the worst thing that can happen?

Trevor McKee: Yes. Yes. Yes.

Rob McMullan: And I you know it it I typically as I understand who you are and more and more we will know more about each other.

00:57:41

Rob McMullan: but you do kind of think things through. I'm much more of a for better or worse kind of like just a people person and and just think of it I I'll just kind of do it.

Trevor McKee: Ready?

Rob McMullan: But rather than thinking about how I can do it, it just kind of came organically for me. But that I used to be a very shy teenager and I do think getting out and doing stuff that makes you better. I went to four different high schools that helped me, right? Because you can imagine, you know, when you're in high school, you're very awkward in the beginning. Like my first high school I went to, I grew up in Oakville, Ontario here in Canada. And then I got bust off to well, go figure McMullen, Irish name. My mother's from Dublin. And sent me off by bus over to Burlington to this Catholic school. I went there for three weeks and then we moved went to another school up in GE, right?

00:58:29

Rob McMullan: And then you you're just if you miss those first few weeks, it is so hard to get in, right? And then doing that four times and trying to figure out how to insinuate yourself into these groups, that helped me a lot. I also want to give some some props here to my crazy ex-girlfriend in Tokyo. It's funny how things come into your life when and what's the worst that can happen? What what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. came home from work one night. I still remember I was spending pretty much all my income on this like really expensive apartment. It's just off of Moasando Jinguai. For those who don't know, Tokyo along Moando is like the Shanles of Tokyo. At the time, Tokyo is the most expensive city in the world. And I got home and I I can still remember I don't know, she'd been peeling vegetables or something like that. I came on some argument over some inane thing, which I genuinely cannot remember.

00:59:26

Rob McMullan: So, I don't think it was anything big that I really done, but she was upset. And I'm not kidding that I remember we had this vegetable. You ever seen a, you know, vegetable peeling knife? Do you ever do that with your with your wife, with Jen? Like you got those really sharp vegetable peeler knives. They're super sharp. You know what I mean?

Trevor McKee: Mhm.

Rob McMullan: And I still remember this thing like about a four or five inch blade on it with this orange handle. And so she picked up this thing and that in this house we had there's, you know, it was a house. It was a apartment. It was like the kitchen. There was like a middle like a living area and then there was like a foyer and like kind of traditional style wood what would have been rice paper not glass the sliding doors right the one from the kitchen

Trevor McKee: Mhm.

Rob McMullan: to the middle room was open and the one from the foyer where they came in and you know put your your shoes and slippers in there that was closed and she came after me with a knife and slashed me on the forearm.

01:00:25

Rob McMullan: I still got a little scar on my back from that where she tried to stab me.

Trevor McKee: Oh my god.

Rob McMullan: She did stab me and got away from that. U she obviously had some emotional problems, but I I don't I don't hold any grudge against her. But I'm just trying to mention this to you is because like what? Hey, that didn't kill me. I could very well have died right there.

Trevor McKee: right?

Rob McMullan: Someone just snapped on me.

Trevor McKee: Wow.

Rob McMullan: And so when these things happen to you, I think you can either be crushed by it or you can just think like, hey, this is this adds to the tapestry of your life. These are all great stories.  and so I I think that's part about developing resilience to difficult things and also train your mind.

Trevor McKee: Yes.

Rob McMullan: You can even go back and look at all the crazy things that have happened to all of us have had something to some degree crazy happen. And I think we want to want to learn from that.

01:01:16

Rob McMullan: It's like, hey, I survived that. I did other great things after that. So I can, you know, I I can I can I can continue to do even better. So this you're going to have to have that resilience because to be a successful entrepreneur or successful at anything, right? Even you're working for someone else or in school.

Trevor McKee: Mhm.

Rob McMullan: I mean obviously you and I uh did well at school. I I certainly wasn't the smartest person at Waterlue or Harvard, but like I worked my butt off. And so you you need to do difficult things academically and business and look back on those things and and don't let them like use them as a springboard. I guess like sorry I'm going on a little bit but I I I really believe that what doesn't kill you should make you stronger.

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: And what's the worst that can happen? You're probably not going to get almost stabbed to death by a crazy woman in Tokyo.

Trevor McKee: Mhm. Yeah.

01:02:10

Trevor McKee: No, no. And and I think I think I I've heard it said that like if you're not doing difficult things, if you're not doing things that are outside of your comfort zone, you're never going to sort of grow, you know? So, so doing getting it can be very easy to get stuck in sort of a routine and you know we're we're creatures of habit and we like to sort of know what we're doing each day.

Rob McMullan: Yes. Yes. Yes.

Trevor McKee: But but getting outside of that comfort zone and trying things that are new and trying things that are, you know, maybe scary. um do it once and just see what happens, you know. And um

Rob McMullan: Oh yeah, for sure. Like I mean I I don't I don't mean to harp on it, but it'll it'll be something that I I come up with because that five years that I spent in Tokyo and and also for about a year in in Soul, South Korea, like so many experiences there and going off for the first time to Tokyo from Vancouver where I was living with my folks at the time.

01:03:08

Rob McMullan: It's like I half thought it was like part Ridley Scots blade runner with geisha running around and you don't see geisha in Tokyo unless you go out with very very wellto-do Japanese business people who can afford and I'm not exaggerating to send you to these take you to these places where it's like 50,000 bucks for a few few guys to like see geisha forget it. so you know I think you've got to do those bold things. You've got to take you've got to screw it. Let's do it. And you know what? If you fail, as my lovely sister said to me years ago, I really took this to heart. I think I was like worrying about something that gone wrong or bummed out about it. She's like, "Nothing's ever lost. It's

Trevor McKee: Yes.

Rob McMullan: it's either immediately applicable right after or at some point it becomes part of your learning and or it becomes part of your character for the for the better." Like

Trevor McKee: Yes. Yep. Yeah. Yeah.

01:04:05

Trevor McKee: And and I think wasn't it Steve Jobs who said like you I mean you live your life going forwards but like you understand your life by looking backwards and and you you see various parts that like okay

Rob McMullan: Yeah.

Trevor McKee: well you know I was working on that thing and that failed that that led me to understand I mean I was I was part of a company a startup company that I founded that I left and I left it part in part because I just I was doing it as sort of a side gig while I had a regular job that was actually kind of competing with the the startup that I was working on and it just didn't work out, you know, like it just wasn't it wasn't the right thing. But but having that experience kind of taught me, you know, that if it's something, as you said, you have to kind of leap into and and work on 100%. And you know it's it's it is definitely something that it takes a lot of effort to really work on you know on what you're doing and and make sure that that things get done well.

01:05:11

Trevor McKee: For sure.

Rob McMullan: Yeah.

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: I I I would add to that. You remind me of how you know, you kind of want to I don't know why this just what you said reminded me of this, but I I think it's important especially when you're starting out, you don't have any money, like you don't again, you don't have a bunch of money to spend on advertising or other types of promotion on your business or whatever, or even if it hasn't started yet, just go out and tell people what you're doing or what you're going to do. You'll be amazed how things come your way. like people will offer to help and or you know hey I'm very interested in that they they will give you ideas they'll help shape the business so just go out like tell everybody don't be afraid again that's the theme of today it's developed it's like just be bold and challenge yourself and don't be afraid so yeah screw it let's do it and that's probably a good good point at which to uh finish today's episode don't you think Trevor yeah we we again we've got other things coming up and in future.

01:06:07

Trevor McKee: sounds good. Sounds good to me.

Rob McMullan: please stick with us. I know we're going to learn Trevor's probably going to go through and give us a whole bunch of process so we can make their process make it better. But yeah, we we promise we have we have act access to some really really cool people. So we will be bringing them on board. But you know it's it's starting with us and and and we're learning and we want to learn with you. So,  yeah, feel free to comment in there and,  yeah, feel free to contact,  us even directly, reach out on LinkedIn, whatever you want to do. So, thanks. Thanks very much,  for those of you who who listen this far and we look forward to,  hearing from you again and giving you some more,  great stuff.

Trevor McKee: and make sure you like and subscribe so that you can hear more of us rambling on about various things.

Rob McMullan: 100%. Yeah. Okay. Thanks, guys.

Trevor McKee: All righty. Thanks a lot.