Your happiness depends most on this!

Rob McMullan and Trevor McKee, hosts of the "High Octane Friends podcast," dedicated their third episode to exploring various aspects of happiness, discussing personal hacks and learned experiences. They delved into topics such as:

• Personal habits like smiling
• Experiences with mental health support 
• Overcoming imposter syndrome from the Dunning-Kruger effect
• Benefits of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT), as well as social connections. 

The speakers also emphasized the importance of comedy, humor, family, friendship, and the value of in-person connections and hobbies, along with strategies like exercise, distraction, and the "one minute" hack for overcoming procrastination.

The High Octane Friends podcast is where Rob McMullan & Trevor McKee discuss a variety of subjects in an authentic and unvarnished way.

Rob McMullan LinkedIn
linkedin.com/in/robmcmullan
Trevor McKee LinkedIn
linkedin.com/in/trevordmckee
High Octane Friends website
highoctanefriends.com

Transcript

Trevor McKee: Thank you, everyone for joining us for another edition of High Octane Friends podcast. it's, myself, Trevor, and Rob, and we are, going to be talking this week about happiness.

00:16:42

Trevor McKee: So you know, and I think we we we're still, debating, you know, all of the various aspects because there's so much stuff you could talk about there. but, you know, in general, the idea is what makes you happy? What makes you know, what makes each of us happy? Are there different hacks that we can talk about from our own personal experiences that we've used to through our lifetimes or from what we've learned or various aspects like that. And yeah, so anything you want to add, Rob?

Rob McMullan: yeah.

Trevor McKee: You're again we're

Rob McMullan: I'm sorry. Yes, I tend to go out of the frame. We're having some technical challenges, audience. so pardon me. I had my cat in the frame earlier and maybe that's why it's it's also like that. happiness is is is a is a goal that was for me an answer to the question directly put to me in person by a billionaire about well that would have been back in 2016 I think 2015 and said you know what is your goal you know what's the most important thing and he he wanted me to say something about because u he wanted me to say something about how people make make him

00:18:05

Rob McMullan: money through money cuz anyway sharing his partner and he didn't like my answer because my answer was happiness.

Rob McMullan: The question was like, "What's the most important thing to you?" And as you may expect, you know, a a self-made billionaire, I won't mention this person's name you know, might you might think that they would air on the side of wanting to really make so much money. Like this is a person that has had a couple of yachts. One was worth I remember at the time 85 million euros I think he paid for it and then he bought another one and I think it was 250 million US dollars and promptly sold it. So you know obviously it wasn't making you happy and I think it is a valid thing. It's not the only thing and money of course is part of your happiness. You need to be able to survive. I came back from a walk this morning, a very interesting group here in Toronto that went out to a park called Downs View Park.

00:19:06

Rob McMullan: And I had no idea because it used to be a military airport. And I didn't realize that that this park was outside of that so grand and the fellow who was giving the walk, doing the talk and talking a lot about nature. I like to walk. I walk a couple of times a day whenever I can. And increasingly I'm going to these parks and doing more exploring. And it was so interesting hearing about talks about the plants and stuff. And it made me realize again it's like you know as long as you're we all I think like money but some of us become too aistic too greedy and we forget what's really important. And I think happiness is a very very valid goal in life and not just if you're in the depths of depression you know and just to get back to quoteunquote normaly I think about my mother who was in

Trevor McKee: Mhm.

Rob McMullan: now we're in her late 90s and actually I remember do do you remember this Trevor I think it was last year I happened to be on the phone to you may not remember this I called you and I remember I went out on the back porch there in her garden she's in in South Suri, which is at White Rock, just south a suburb of Vancouver.

00:20:20

Rob McMullan: And I remember as I was talking with you and I said, "Look, I I'm just looking in amazement on my mother who I think at the time was 96, lives by herself, largely independent, and she's out vigorously like, you know, doing stuff in the garden." And I'm like, "Wow." And I I often say to my son, like, you know, call your grandmother you're not doing well because she's the happiest person I know.

Trevor McKee: Mhm. Mhm.

Rob McMullan: I we don't have all the answers, but we're going to talk about some of the things some of the things that make us happy. I think because happiness is so much tied to our our brain and our neurological system in general, it it it behooves us to look at what are the things that make us happy in our brain from

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: our brain. So some of that is attitudinal, you know, like if you you tell yourself you're happy and and you look for things that make you happy and you even talk to people even by virtue of you being on this

00:21:08

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: podcast today and listening to us audience like I hope that you get at least one thing that you will try out to make you happy. Here's one of them. if I moved over so maybe I just move over this way.

Trevor McKee: Yeah. It would be really happy. I would be really happy if you were like Yes.

Rob McMullan: I'll drift. I may drift. I'm in my car drifting. one of the things that does seem to have an effect on me is and boost my happiness is something I thought of some years ago and and I it was just kind of a on a whim. I thought I wonder if this is the case. It was a hypothesis of sorts. It was very scientific and then I found out indeed there is research to suggest this is true. As many of you know areas around your mouth are amongst, if not the most innervated place, regions of your body.

Trevor McKee: Mhm. Mhm.

00:22:09

Rob McMullan: And so there's lots of nerves in there. And of course, it's in your head on your head. And it it links to your brain, you not quite directly, but pretty closely.

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: And so I thought, I wonder if, you know, because people often mix up what what is the order of operations? What's the cause and effect? you're happy and therefore you smile or you smile and therefore you're happy and so I thought I wonder if it goes both ways to some extent and so it turns out it does both from what I research

Rob McMullan: and then you know you need to get into a habit often happiness is a habit doing certain habits and so when I remember to do this I got into a as I'm talking about this I'm going to do

Trevor McKee: Right.

Rob McMullan: it again more when I wake up in the morning when one of the very First things I often do is I would just it sounds so weird and my when my wife happens to look over at me, she's like a gas at this but I always smile and no matter what I had been dreaming or what I was thinking I'll smile for a minute or two.

00:23:07

Trevor McKee: Mhm.

Rob McMullan: And so your brain apparently doesn't really know the difference between a smile that is induced by your already state of happiness and the other way around. So it starts triggering off. Okay. Happy happiness. So that's one thing I do.

Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. So, smiling triggers oxytocin and oxytocin is the like, you know, one of the happiness hormones. So, I was gonna say there's actually a bunch. and so, not that. So, again, I'm not a neuroscientist, but I've I've sort of been self Yeah, I play one on TV.

Rob McMullan: Are you playing one on TV?

Trevor McKee: Exactly. Well, I've I've been so I have struggled with depression and anxiety for for many many years and you know sort of been getting professional help all the way back to grad school. started in grad school with procrastination and you know was struggling with procrastination. I would sit down to do the work.

00:24:12

Trevor McKee: I couldn't do it. I'd get be doing other things. And so I actually went to I went to MIT. MIT medical had this had had a great sort of mental health system there and spoke to somebody and got referred to psychiatrist and I mean thank goodness because I I was going through a lot at the time both both personally and professionally and it really helped me to it helped me to kind of get through that sort of tough period of my life and you know and the first thing I think my psychiatrist said to me is like well one in three MIT students are you know on some form of are using some form of mental health resource whe whether it's

Rob McMullan: Oh, is that right? Is that right?

Trevor McKee: and and and that's actually fairly common you know for these I mean you can imagine you know high stress environment but also in general you know sort of uh is the case that that more and more people kind of you know need uh support and need help.

00:25:18

Trevor McKee: And and this goes back to kind of you know, one of the things we've we we we hear about a lot in the literature is well one one thing you can hear the word imposttor syndrome and when I was trying to explain to Rob what imposter syndrome was it's sort of like I was like well it's the opposite of Dunning Krueger. So, if everyone heard has heard the Dunning Krueger effect, it's basically these uh two social scientists um figured out that you know, in general or did a study where they showed that in general people that know less about a topic have more confidence when they're talking about that topic than people that are experts, you know. And so there's this there's there's this curve of like expertise where where confidence versus uh confidence versus expertise, right? And there's there's the peak of Mount Stupid is done in Krueger. And that's where that's where you you might hear someone talking about, you know, something that that they they purport to be an expert on, but they really don't know as much as an expert.

00:26:26

Trevor McKee: But the expert does knows less. You know, I think there's this famous quote by Bertrren Russell saying the problem with with and I'm going to butcher it, but the problem with life today is that the you know the the the stupid are so cockure and the the wise are riddled with doubt and anxiety, you know, and Oh, yeah.

Rob McMullan: Well, and isn't it so interesting Bertran Russell like when when was that? But but we're going through that very much now. Even more so, I would suggest.

Trevor McKee: Yeah. I know it's been it's only been amplified by social media as well and and and all of the other things that that that sort of reward people that are allowed and have authorative statements over people that are

Rob McMullan: Yeah.

Trevor McKee: more have a more nuanced view on things, you know. and and that's absolutely a topic for another podcast entirely probably.

Rob McMullan: Yes. Yeah, we'll have to elaborate.

Trevor McKee: but but to get back to to imposter syndrome you know like so Dunning Krueger is talks about kind of false competence you know and then imposter syndrome is is false insecurity it's that it's those people once they know enough about a topic to know all of the things that they don't know you know they they they can feel insecure like I mean I still I've been coding for whatever 20 years and I still

00:27:31

Rob McMullan: Yeah.

Trevor McKee: feel insecure when I go to code that I'm like ah well I don't really know as much as let's say a professional coder, but I know enough to get by and I know enough to kind of do the work that I need to do. and but I don't see all of that accumulated expertise. All I see is the glaring holes where it's like, oh, I I don't remember how these brackets are supposed to be formatted or something, you know. So so I think you know that's that's very much and and people with imposter syndrome then that can feed into itself and you can and that leads to procrastination that leads to all sorts of other issues and um you know and and it and it gets back to kind of like the kind of almost hacking the reward system in your brain, right? So you know figuring out the right combination of either I think one of the things we talked about was cognitive behavioral therapy, which is kind of like there we go.

00:28:33

Rob McMullan: I just wrote it down. Yeah, I just wrote

Trevor McKee: Fantastic. Yeah. And so that's, you know, long story short, there's a whole field of CBT that's that you can certainly dive into, but my shorthand for it is it's sort of like you're realizing that you look out on the world with a certain mindset and that you know that that that mindset has in it sort of these automatic thoughts that feed back to you. So that that can influence your view in one way or another you know and so so uh I've you know I've been very successful in research and one of the reasons I was was that I just had the right combination of certain you know like obsessive some obsessive compulsive and some like you know like like worry anxiety about you know experiments failing where that turned into this sort of worstcase disaster scenario generator in my head. when I'm walking around, I'm like, well, I got to make sure that that's that system is ready so that if I come over there, I can use it, you know, like.

00:29:40

Rob McMullan: Right.

Trevor McKee: So, it's it's useful for planning experiments. It's not useful for living your life, you know, to always be thinking about the worst case scenario that can happen. So, yeah. Yeah.

Rob McMullan: And they and they taught you all. I was very fascinated by what you said about the one and three. and and you you experience a lot of that when you're at MIT. And by the way, for those who don't know, that's MIT, of course, that's the Mayberry Institute of Technology, right?

Trevor McKee: Yes.

Rob McMullan: Which leads me into my next point which is a really important thing about being happy is comedy humor. That's a great way like find a you know I highly suggest and Trevor will definitely have something to say about this because he's an amateur standup comedian as well.

Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah.

Rob McMullan: But I highly suggest you find you find your favorite comedian or two or show you know and just like that.

Trevor McKee: Yes. Yes. Yes. And there there's so many now that you can get one that your particular I mean there's there Don McMullen is this great like engineer uh comedian and all he does is like powerpoints and they're hilarious.

00:30:35

Rob McMullan: It's wonder it's wonderful. Like I'm Oh, who who is that? What's the name again?

Trevor McKee: Don McMullen. Yeah.

Rob McMullan: Donald. Oh, geez.

Trevor McKee: I'll put it in the show notes.

Rob McMullan: Oh, wow.

Trevor McKee: Give him a shout out.

Rob McMullan: Maybe he's a distant relative of mine.

Trevor McKee: Oh, yeah. Yeah, it might be.

Rob McMullan: Well, like like you and me, he's got obviously some Irish heritage in there. So, yeah.

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: the Irish tend to have the gift of the gab. And actually back to my my mother who's the happiest person I know.

Trevor McKee: Mhm.

Rob McMullan: she's right from Dublin. my dad's family was from the north and somehow they I don't know how they made it work. A Protestant from the north and a Catholic from the south. growing up in that family you learn to navigate a few things. but my mother was definitely the happier one in that equation. And I think a lot of that is about well it's about friendship.

00:31:29

Rob McMullan: It's about being independent. It's gaining a sense of confidence.

Trevor McKee: Yes.

Rob McMullan: It's you know, I've not known my mother to exercise, but I mean, she does gardening and and walks the dog and stuff like that, but she certainly people love my mother and people like that, you know, they have lots of friends. She had a friend that that just died. I swear audience, I'm not making this up. This person must have been one of the oldest people in Canada, if not the world. She just died last year. Her good friend was 112. one of her best friends now is 101. And so like and and this woman who's 101, even more than my mother, still drives. She's like, "Oh, I'm gonna come over and you know, I'm going to drive over." And my mom's like, "I'm not driving with her. I'm not driving with you." But you know, so there's this this kind of power there, this independence. I think happiness comes from that. And if you're afraid to do stuff, you know what?

00:32:24

Rob McMullan: as I said to somebody years ago you know, run toward those things that scare you and that are difficult. And they came back to me years later and said, they're from Brazil and they said, I remember you said that to me and and they sent me an email and I I wanted to thank you.

Trevor McKee: H All right.

Rob McMullan: I was like, oh wow, I actually said something valuable. So, I think, you know, do stuff that's difficult. It'll make you feel a sense of accomplishment. If you're having troubles, of course, go see a therapist. I mean, I've gone through that years ago. There was a time when I first went I lived in Tokyo for about five years. And, you know, coming from a suburb of Toronto, Oakville, and kind of living that rather cloistered life and then just having a bit of a love affair with the Orient since I was a little boy, but then still just kind of going there. It's a big shock and culture shock. And so the stress of that combined with me having broken up with my longtime girlfriend and then all of a sudden I'm in a land where like you literally stand out.

00:33:25

Rob McMullan: I'm 6' one you know fair and you know you kind of have all these fast fair weather friends I came to realize is what they were. They weren't substantial. You want to have friends but just like having hangers on and I used to sing in a band in Tokyo.

Trevor McKee: Yes.

Rob McMullan: It's like we you kind of realize this and this kind of really stressed me out and my hair started falling out which stressed me out more and then my hair started calling literally in clumps and you know for a young man that's a big deal. So your hair's falling out. So CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy, I remember having to go see a therapist and that's what they did. and they just they just change your your thinking like some somewhere along the line you get off the right path of of your way of perceiving the world, right? So, you need that objectivity.

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: You need that's one of the reasons why you need friends if not therapists.

00:34:18

Rob McMullan: It's just to kind of straighten out your view.

Trevor McKee: Yeah. Oh, yeah. No, I I I I say to a lot of my friends that I crowdsource my psychotherapy. I just, you know, and and but you have to be careful with that, too, you know, because I think I've actually burnt burnt a few out by like, oh, you know, like and it was I mean, in my

Rob McMullan: Yeah, it's cheaper. Right.

Trevor McKee: defense, it was over COVID times and like things were pretty stressful, but but yeah, like you you you want to there's a fine balance between like using your friends as sort of just a b**** session to get like stuff off your head and and also kind of like just having interesting, productive conversations, you know, and and and and and I think but I think it is useful to at least and I've

Rob McMullan: Right.

Trevor McKee: always noticed that every time I am feeling super down, if I just pick up the phone and have even just a simple conversation with somebody, I feel better afterwards, you know, because you kind of get get yourself out of your own head.

00:35:17

Trevor McKee: And that's particularly for you know like me in particular in that I tend to be kind of a bit bit obsessive about things or or I'll be stuck on this problem and and like you know can't let it go. but taking taking a walk taking a chance going outside you know these sorts of things can certainly help. And then there's another thing you mentioned there uh just about kind of as you get older you know your your priorities change and I think uh many people well I mean like the question many people get asked on their deathbed like what do you regret most and no none of them say like I wish I had more money right it's always I wish I spent more time with my family during this time period I wish I you know did this did and and it usually involves friends and and and and at the same time meet making friends gets harder and harder as you get out of school. So u you know making an effort to go to that networking event, go to put yourself well as you said put yourself in situations outside of your comfort zone.

00:36:24

Trevor McKee: if you're an introvert, you know, I think it's it's useful to exercise that muscle and um you know, try to meet people.

Rob McMullan: Yeah.

Trevor McKee: and I mean nowadays it's so easy to do online that you can you can absolutely find your tribe of people that are, you know, obsessed about Pokemon cards or whatever it is. and and and and meet up. You know, I have a friend who runs a he's a is a moderator on a on a board game board, and that's his job is he he he works for the board gaming uh company and and helps to you know, helps with sort of uh discussions and content and that kind of stuff. and and you know and that and that's actually that's one of our my family's uh things that we do is is board games because it gets everybody off the screen and I think we need to start reinstituting it actually is like you know screen Saturday and so it's just like hey kids no screens internet's unplugged so you know like we got a bunch of board games we can play we can you can

00:37:19

Rob McMullan: Yeah. Yeah.

Trevor McKee: have friends over to play with them we can go outside we can do things that don't revolve around screen time because I think I think that's actually another point is that is is that sometimes it's not enough to just have online friends and especially as we're going more and more digital you know and and I mean that that's something we've also noticed I mean so we we've been a part of a very um

Rob McMullan: No, no, not at all.

Trevor McKee: popular sort of networking event that's that kicked off shortly after COVID and people and like it's been it's been fantastic Fantastic. And one of the reasons is people like to network in person, you know, like there were these interesting things that popped up over COVID of like lunch club where you could have like virtual meetings with somebody and those were great because again it it fulfilled that social social bucket but meeting in person really was was was missing and you know I remember being in a job and and meeting people for the first time and they they didn't realize that yeah same thing I was six foot tall uh because all I all I was to them was a floating head on a Zoom screen.

00:38:37

Trevor McKee: So

Rob McMullan: Right. The way I you mentioned lunch club, that's a good one to meet people. But the way in which I use it ultimately is if they're in my city, I have met some interesting people virtually all around the world. But if they're in Toronto, which is where we are, I make an effort to invite them if it's a good conversation to meet in person. And I I literally I just got a message before we got on here and someone was responding to something on LinkedIn to me.

Trevor McKee: yeah. Yeah.

Rob McMullan: It's like, "Hey, your next event for High Octane Friends, make sure I I'm there." And so I had met him on Lunch Club. but I wanted to I wanted to comment on something you said about you know, kind of going off the internet and and electronica of all sorts, if you will, the internet, your phones on weekends.

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: an episode I had with in our household just on Saturday.

Trevor McKee: Mhm.

00:39:30

Rob McMullan: that's what happened. So my son I don't want to throw my son under the bus here. He's a good kid. But you know he was he was being a little sirly. Let's say that.

Trevor McKee: Mhm.

Rob McMullan: And so okay, that's it. Now he's 20. He's not a kid anymore, right? But he's a young adult. I'm like that's it. You know, you're living in our house. You can't talk to us that way. we're taking your phone away until at least dinner time, assuming you can behave. And so I took it away from him physically. He was not happy. I physically took it away from him, hid it away.

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: And in doing that, it forced him to do things differently and you know, and so we have an electric guitar. and so he went and he got the electric guitar out and he was like he spent the entire afternoon learning how to play new riffs and like researching it like that's a much better use of your time.

00:40:21

Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah.

Rob McMullan: And so like he he was happy.

Trevor McKee: Well, hobbies, right? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. hobbies, you know, and and so I think I'm again you know, not to not to beat the dead horse of I'm obsessive, but like I will I guess maybe the right word might be highly conscientious, right? And I think we talked about conscientiousness before, although not always that highly conscientious, but call it what you will. I I tend to always or or or I I am high in worry, right? So I'll be worrying about oh there's this thing that I need to finish I need to finish and and in doing so I I sort of it crowds out all of the other time and I don't I don't give myself time to do thing to do hobbies. And one of one of the things I've tried to sort of make a habit is at least exercise, right?

00:41:22

Trevor McKee: Run I need I need to run a couple kilometers a couple times a week on a regular basis because there's absolutely evidence that you know exercise does help to make you happier.

Rob McMullan: What?

Trevor McKee: You know it it it it makes it makes you feel better. um it gives you again time away from the screen, time away from anything else just to where sometimes a lot of your your you know good ideas I mean the reason good ideas happen in the shower is because you're not in front of the screen doing stuff you're just like you know your your mind has the opportunity to wander and and it can happen upon new ideas and new inspirations.

Rob McMullan: Yeah.

Trevor McKee: So you know and maybe not as much running because you're you're physically exerting yourself but but still you know it it gives gives you a chance to get outside, get away from things and and and you know time to reflect a little bit and and and it gives you the happiness chemicals afterwards.

00:42:30

Rob McMullan: I I I've not I'm not aware of the study if it's been done, but I'd be interested to look at this data where if they looked at people who are regular long-distance runners, like marathon runners, and

Trevor McKee: Yeah. H. Hey.

Rob McMullan: be interested to see if there is one what the correlation is between you know long distance like really pretty serious exercise and depression is I'm guessing there is a there is a significant inverse relationship there but I'd like to I'd like to see it you know I and I think running and for me I used to run a lot I stopped two years ago because as with many things I go whole hog into and I was doing really like pretty heavy stuff and then I would like run like a maniac and so I got an overuse ind injury and I stopped. But what I do do now is I walk twice a day usually and sometimes I if I walk inside I have a treadmill so I walk between 5 degrees and 10 degrees which is fairly steep and just

00:43:29

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: to be specific I I do that at four 4.2 2 miles an hour, which is fairly quick for walking and especially when you're on an incline. And you know, I do 20 minutes of that and that's enough probably for me certainly to be a little bit out of breath and certainly to work up a sweat.

Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah.

Rob McMullan: And that is very helpful. I would also say something about like distraction. I think if you can find distraction, that's useful. like something was bothering me the other night and my wife had mentioned my wife's Korean by the way originally and so we we love we we we love Korean dramas and Korean shows and stuff. That's one of the things we do together. And she was saying one of the new shows that she was watching on her own. I was like, "What do you mean you're watching it on your own? Let's watch it together." And she was telling me about she's like, "I don't know if you'll like it. It's

00:44:30

Rob McMullan: like it's a it's a gory thriller about serial killers." I'm like, well, I'm not really interested in the gore part of it. But then I at first I thought no and then I thought, you know what, it might be a good distraction for me. So, it's pretty hard to think about, you know, your own worries when you're like transfixed by the screen and someone's about to get killed or it's a big question. So I you know I'm not counseling people to spend too much time binge watching Netflix or certainly not doom scrolling but sometimes you know these sorts short bursts of this can be a distraction and I think running probably there's a biochemical reaction I'm sure there too but you know it's somewhat a distraction like I used to race motorcycles and ride motorcycles and I remember like for me if it was a lot on my mind

Trevor McKee: Yeah. No.

Rob McMullan: I'd go for a ride on my motorcycle because it's so so dangerous. I do not recommend this. I'm just giving you an example of distraction.

00:45:28

Rob McMullan: If I if you want to avoid being killed or certainly try your best to avoid being killed like hit by a taxi for example or a bus as is often the case in in a big city like Tokyo, you have to be 100% focused. You can't be worrying about this thing at work or whatever. So, I do think distraction is is one of those positive things. So find something to my dad always said you're feeling down like find something to occupy your time which really means occupy your mind because you can't

Trevor McKee: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And and I mean especially nowadays I I have lots of friends that are have been laid off and looking for work, you know, and and I think that can be and I and my my dad when we moved so originally from South Africa moved to the States and and then moved up and then I moved up to Canada. my family we were struggling for a little while in that there was a there was a recession and my dad's company actually well he got laid off and then the plant closed and so he was very stressed for a period of time when we were growing up.

00:46:42

Trevor McKee: and and was able to kind of get through it by I think he he did some consulting work and just you know kept looking for looking for jobs and and uh same thing for me when I've uh you know I've I'm running a couple of startups now and or a startup and I'm involved in a few other things and at least I have that to sort of um keep me from you know the constant doom scrolling of like, oh, you know, like I'm waiting on hearing from this this job application or that job application.

Rob McMullan: Yeah. Right.

Trevor McKee: And definitely, you know, keep yourself busy and and and and and keep yourself busy doing something that's either productive or that's that, you know, gives you some form of joy, right?

Rob McMullan: Keep yourself busy. Keep yourself busy. Yeah.

Trevor McKee: So, so I mean, I'm actually wearing a a shirt that my my wife made for me that's that on her vinyl cutter.

00:47:40

Trevor McKee: and and so she she got a vinyl cutter and then kind of early earlier for right before a big conference I was going to we had a little I I put it right to work and and had a little uh assembly machine going where I made a whole bunch of t-shirts that I had then handed out at the conference. And so and so it was sort of you know a combination of like making but the the benefits of making something with your hands was actually something that really was rewarding you know and and I could and you know plus I I mean being the the the the entrepreneur I I was I was able to say I made this myself you know when I'm handing it out to people. So you gotta you got to wear it. You got to take a picture wearing it and send me that photo. So yeah.

Rob McMullan: That's very Cool. yeah, it's it's very cool what you said.

00:48:38

Rob McMullan: I I think that I'm gling on to here is that making things with your hands and hobbies, doing things with your hands.

Trevor McKee: Mhm.

Rob McMullan: So, you know, and it might come back to that connection like like the physical movement and connect it up through to your brain, which of course happiness.

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: So, we were talking about smiling first and then that can make you happy. Doing things first can make you happy. you know, you're just start you can intellectualize and say, "Look, I'm not happy."

Trevor McKee: Yep.

Rob McMullan: and obviously if you're severely depressed, that is a completely different thing and you need to see a professional for that. But I think if you're just feeling kind of, you know, stressed out or or got the blues you may not want to go out and meet people or you may not want to do anything, but do it anyway. And by doing it that helps you.

Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah.

Rob McMullan: It's kind of like exercise, right? I don't feel like lifting weights tonight.

00:49:33

Rob McMullan: Well, we'll do it anyway. And one thing I found helpful is, you know, whether it's with work and you and I are are often involved in some kind of startups, like, you know, I adise some startups as well, and I've been an entrepreneur

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: myself, but, you know, it's it's just you you you don't think, okay, I'm going to do this. And so you kind of the the tendency for a lot of people, myself included, is you think about doing it as the entirety of that. But that is very daunting. It's kind of like the old adage of how do you eat an elephant?

Trevor McKee: Yes. Yes.

Rob McMullan: Well, s***, I got to eat this elephant because it's on my KPIs. That's what I have to do this year. I have to I'm obsessing about how the hell am I going to eat the elephant? Well, no, you eat it one bite at a time. And so you kind of say to yourself, okay, like running or I've got to do this task.

00:50:21

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: I'm just going to do it for one minute.

Trevor McKee: Yes.

Rob McMullan: Some very short that's all I'm going to do.

Trevor McKee: Yes.

Rob McMullan: But more often than not, you know, so that makes it very non-daunting is a term.

Trevor McKee: Mhm.

Rob McMullan: And then I' I've found this actually works is like you're just doing it for a minute and then you're like, "Okay, I'm into it now." And just keep going. You'll probably do it more than that minute.

Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah.

Rob McMullan: And and then you develop a habit.

Trevor McKee: And Easy.

Rob McMullan: But getting over that hump is very very important. So just say to yourself like I know I need to do that task. And you talked about procrastination earlier. And of course if you continue to procrastinate that makes you unhappy because you feel guilty about not having done it or you're worried about a deadline or something you're not doing.

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: So just say to yourself, okay, I'm going to work on it.

00:51:10

Rob McMullan: I'm only going to work on it for a minute. There's an actual name for this. I I can't remember. They've done studies on it. sorry that I don't have that. But I I think that these are valuable little hacks, right? Perhaps we should we should be titling this uh podcast happiness hacks that you can how to hack your own happiness. I don't know. We we'll think about that.

Trevor McKee: Mhm. Mhm.

Rob McMullan: but let's mention a couple of other things. Does anything else come to mind for you? I know we wrote down a few things here. What what does your happiness depend on or what can be Oh, one of the things can I add? one of the things about happy is not just finding things that make you happy. It's avoiding things that make you unhappy.

Trevor McKee: unhappy. Exactly.

Rob McMullan: It's the negative of that.

Trevor McKee: Exactly. Yeah.

Rob McMullan: You know, if you find frequently that there's a certain thing that irritates you and then maybe you you you you whine about it, you whine about it to your spouse or your family and then of course that creates

00:51:54

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: more unhappiness because now you're in a fight. It's like if there's something continually, you know, bothering you, take the time, I would say, to think about it and how you can remove that from your life.

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: and I I can't think of an example. I don't know. Can you think of an example?

Trevor McKee: Oh, well, yeah. Yeah, just news. So, I think so I my my my my wife loves to watch like the American news just as a form of entertainment, but it just stresses me out. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. you know, it's it just just uh and and I mean like less less so, but I mean actually the the one source of entertainment for us in early COVID times where the one hour plus uh news conferences where certain leader was telling people to inject bleach and but but I think I've I've definitely noticed that the less and and social media the less time you set I it has been objectively shown

00:52:57

Rob McMullan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He would always right.

Trevor McKee: that the less time you spend on social media, the better you feel. And why that is is because you're comparing your everyday to everyone else's highlight reels, right? So, everyone's got these like, "Oh, look, I just went to Cabo and I have this beautiful picture and you know, meanwhile, you're you're you're toughing it away in the trenches and and in fact that that picture was

Rob McMullan: Yeah.

Trevor McKee: from like five weeks ago and they're they're and yes, yes.

Rob McMullan: And we can alter it. Furthermore, Oh,

Trevor McKee: Yes. And now with AI, who knows? But but you know, like uh staying off social media and or highly curating it, right? So I'm I'm on Twitter and what I do is I just make sure that I only follow pathologists, right? So if I only follow pathologists, I don't follow any political stuff. Then I get I I curate my algorithm to feed me information that gives me what I need in terms of like networking with scientists and that sort of thing.

00:53:52

Rob McMullan: okay.

Trevor McKee: And you know and then maybe even have a separate account where I I do other things and and tailor it towards feeding me what I want to see, you know. because because absolutely you know I mean Facebook was the worst for for this and that anything that generates rage is going to generate and you know any clickbaity whatever thing is going to generate more attention and all of these companies billions of dollars are are funneling into how to get the attention of more and more people and you know and that's not necess and attention is not necessarily healthy.

Rob McMullan: Yeah,

Trevor McKee: just you know or or attention can be hacked, right? our attention can be hacked by people that know that outrage, you know, like is a lot easier to to to uh generate than kind of something that you know, puppies that that movies of puppies, you know, like and and so like curating what you're feeding your brain is going to is going to be very beneficial. And along the Yeah.

00:55:13

Rob McMullan: There you there you go audience. If you take just one gem from this today is like go out and watch puppies preferably in the real world while you're walking or jogging but I've been there.

Trevor McKee: There you go. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes. I mean, there are literally like p puppy there there's like cat cafes, right, where you can go and you can hang out and there's just a bunch of cats.

Rob McMullan: I've been to I've been to a very nice cat cafe. For some reason, this has taken off a lot in Tokyo. It's sorry if I keep bringing this up, but last time we're for those of you who know Tokyo or have heard of that as an area called Herajuku or as Americans would say, Herajuku. and it's a very famous street. I remember with my my Canadian friend Jeff going there. We we were I was working at fintech at the time and there's a there's a conference there and he was in he's he's a an investor an entrepreneur and I'm like I'll meet you at Harajuku we're going to go to teeshadori which is it's at tita and it look and he's like are you kidding me you're gonna take and he had the runs at the time because he'd come in from Dubai and he caught when

00:56:24

Rob McMullan: he was there and he was had been having problems for weeks I shouldn't say this I won't say his last name and you know he's he's denouncing me for not knowing this. What do you mean? Is this a joke? You're going to take me to take a s*** take a s*** alley. No, it's tea. anyway, they had a really wonderful see humor again.

Trevor McKee: So, yeah.

Rob McMullan: They had a really Yeah. wonderful cat cafe. They've got Yeah.

Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah. And and and then I think it came up earlier when we were talking about friends, right? and like isn't there's there's a saying that you are the average of the five people you spend the most time with, you know, and and so I think cutting out negative people from your life is can is tough to do but sometimes necessary. I've certainly had to do it a few times where you know like either it's just the person would be just bringing me down in the dumps every time I spoke to them because oh this is going wrong

00:57:15

Rob McMullan: Yeah.

Trevor McKee: and that's going wrong or and you know I was I I think some of that was therapeutic because I was able to kind of like use like my counseling them to get over whatever I was dealing

Rob McMullan: Yeah.

Trevor McKee: with. But but it can't be it can't be monoselabic, right? need to have a a give and take with any given relationship. And and you know, in that case, it wasn't as much. And then other and and other times there were people that just, you know, for lack of a better phrase, got me into trouble. And you know spending less time with people that get you into trouble and more time with people that kind of like can feed feed off of your energy and give you new ideas and andor kind of

Rob McMullan: Yeah.

Trevor McKee: you know super successful people that have you know worked a lot of stuff out and have valuable advice to give you you know even I mean as you said grandparents I would what I wouldn't give to spend more time with my grandparents you know and Yes, exactly.

00:58:24

Rob McMullan: You know, you can you can you can for want of a word kind of do that by proxy, right? Because other other people's spend time with other people's grandparents. Sadly, mine will go around. My favorite person in the entire world. This is somebody you should talk about, too. Ned Murphy, who is you know, my paternal grandfather in Dublin. And oh, love that guy. And you know, he never had a car his entire life. He walked and took his bicycle everywhere. Irish Catholic, of course, so you know, I think he went to church almost every day. He walked to church. he'd go to church after he walked to the pub. How stereotypically Irish is that? Literally, he had a head of cabbage and boiled his own potatoes and cabbage, you know, from his backyard every single day. So we should talk about food and happiness too and you know all those happiness chemicals eating well but having a hu like everybody knew my grandpa and adored him and like you know his his funeral was massive.

00:59:10

Trevor McKee: Yep. Yep.

Rob McMullan: Interesting little side note here. So he was born in 1900 and so when he was really really young the Irish Republican Army which morphed into of course what many would believe to be a terrorist organization. It's it's pretty much gone by the wayside now. But in early days, you know, he was a member of the proper Irish Republican army before it became a terrorist organization, of course. And then when he was really really young and so like everyone loved him and when his funeral happened in the cemetery, there were reportedly a couple of IRA like full-on IRA guys in in the trees. they wouldn't show themselves in the thing which is to honor McGre. I think that's amazing. He was not a terrorist for those of you idiot enough to comment that he was but a very very happy person. Drank like a fish unfortunately, but you know lived to 90 and walked a ton and had a ton of friends and ate really well.

01:00:28

Rob McMullan: boring food consistent, right? So my brother who went to live with him there for I think about six months or so said it was you know he boiled potatoes and boiled cabbage from his his backyard garden every single day.

Trevor McKee: H. Yeah.

Rob McMullan: Oatmeal I think oatmeal for breakfast and stuff like that with typical Irish stuff. so I think that that's I don't know how we got on that but sorry you know oh grand people's grandparents you know you can go volunteering and charitable work helping other people and getting because what you get

Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

Rob McMullan: back from that you can help them you know there's a lot of lonely older people out there naturally I've been thinking about doing this and I love talking I love talking with everybody I love talking with

Trevor McKee: Mhm.

Rob McMullan: kids are delightful my you know my son thinks this is cringey like what do you mean you can't talk to kids you're older like you know people cast dispersions on you like you're some kind of like like nut or something.

01:01:19

Rob McMullan: You I think you can talk to people's kids. but children and older people, you know, children you just get delight from and they say the darnest things and older people have tons of wisdom and they may be right.

Trevor McKee: wisdom. Yeah.

Rob McMullan: They may be retired, but they've got a lot to say. They can tell you about work and your business. They can tell you about your life. You can just there's a new friend. you can get adopt a grandpa. You know, there's a big brothers big sisters.

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: I think they should be big grandpa and big grandma.

Trevor McKee: For sure.

Rob McMullan: Maybe we should start them.

Trevor McKee: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Rob McMullan: Yeah.

Trevor McKee: No, there was this fascinating guy that I met last year and he runs a psychic shop on on the Danforth and and so I was walking by and wandered in and and it

Rob McMullan: Cool.

Trevor McKee: was it was it was the it was the funniest thing.

01:02:07

Trevor McKee: And then I actually had my entire family come and speak to this guy because like he he would read your hand you know but he could read you like a fish and you know would would say things about you that's like oh yeah that actually is true and and really I think what it is is he's just super high you know like super emotionally intelligent you know but he he was like he had this whole story of like he he he was a dunce in high school. He wore the big hats and like he's in his 80s, you know, and and and a literal literal duncap in back out in Saskatchewan and you know, but but he he had he had been like

Rob McMullan: A literal dun cap. Oh, wow. Wow.

Trevor McKee: in marketing for Rogers or something. he had lived a full life and like had done a whole bunch of things and and now he was running this little shop and yeah and it was great and and he would just chat away and

01:03:01

Rob McMullan: That's awesome.

Trevor McKee: and like you know my my friends were selling saying to me like why are you spending time with this guy?

Rob McMullan: Were you were you were you selling your your uh

Trevor McKee: I'm like well if if I can sell an illiterate 80-year-old like psychic on like what I'm doing I can sell it to anybody. You know, it was another one of these sort of like boning up on my on my selling skills, you know, and and like he was well, not really selling him, but like just like like using it as an

Rob McMullan: medical AI consulting services?

Trevor McKee: experience to I mean, it was an excuse to just whatever hang out with the guy because I like to hang out, but just talk, you know, and and like I didn't get a lot of work done.

Rob McMullan: Yeah, let's just talk.

Trevor McKee: and I mean like it was literally it was this Yeah.

Rob McMullan: Can you take Can you I'm I'm serious, Trevor. Can you take me? Is he still alive?

Trevor McKee: Oh, yeah.

01:03:49

Trevor McKee: No, he's around. Yeah. Yeah.

Rob McMullan: Can you take Can you take me one day?

Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah. I think I have his phone number.

Rob McMullan: Because I think Yeah, but I want you to take me.

Trevor McKee: He doesn't He doesn't like the store closed. Like I mean like it wasn't I he he needed help with like selling his selling what he did because he just sat in there and you came in and he read your palm and he wouldn't he wouldn't sell you anything and he's like, "Oh, there's there's a there's a there's a smoothie bar over there if you want to get some smoothies." like because it used to be used to be this tiki bar and then the tiki bar closed and like this guy kind of set up shop in it and like he was even telling me how much he paid like in rent a month and and like he was like I need to do something. I need to do something. And unfortunately, I wasn't in the right state to kind of uh uh help him at the time.

01:04:35

Trevor McKee: But like there was it was a it was a interesting opportunity, you know, like, oh, we could like have a comedy set here. And then apparently some guys some guys from the weed store next door had like, you know, talked about doing standup comedy in there, but guess what? The weed guys never followed through. The vape the the vape store flaked out on some business idea.

Rob McMullan: Surprise, surprise.

Trevor McKee: But yeah, like I I think but what I got from him, you know, was just the fact that he he was still, you know, he was happy. He was like doing paintings and stuff. And yes, he was worried about, you know, like about making rent and stuff, but like that didn't dissuade him from just like just doing what he liked to do, you know, and and and and and telling really interesting stories and and like and I mean I brought my kids to meet him and then he told them whether or not it sank in, he would tell them about like how he wasn't always like the best in school, but like he he didn't let that bother him and you know hopefully some of that sunk in. I don't know.

01:05:47

Trevor McKee: But but yeah, like it's it was just really interesting and you know really interesting to learn from an older person who had a lot of life experience. So yeah.

Rob McMullan: Can I pick up on the duncap thing? I want to say something about the duncap thing.

Trevor McKee: Sure. Sure. Yeah.

Rob McMullan: So, not everyone on this podcast now or in future that listens to this one may be aware of what a duncap. Dunce means like idiot, right? Dumb dummy dunce. I I don't know what the the ethmology of that word is, but they used to literally have a hat and it would say dunce on it and if you did said something stupid or got something wrong in class, they would just put you in the corner and you wear the dunce cap. And he was saying some you were saying something about this fellow wasn't the best in school and but he never let that bother him.

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: that, you know, there's this this pretty current term now called the snowflake, right?

01:06:45

Rob McMullan: And how people take offense to everything.

Trevor McKee: Mhm.

Rob McMullan: And of course, you don't want to just be offensive. There is so much to take offense to people spewing hatred and all other obnoxious things on the internet, of course, but I also think that there is a decline in for to coin a phrase, handlebleness.

Trevor McKee: Resilience.

Rob McMullan: Oh god, that's unwieldy. Like you know resiliency to people's negativity, right?

Trevor McKee: Absolutely.

Rob McMullan: like when we were kids like you know bullying and so much about bullying and of course we have more avenues for bullying now but at the same time I'm thinking about the Duncat thing like someone like that he's

Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah.

Rob McMullan: experienced some negative stuff but you know it's not it's not necessarily always a bad thing is what I'm badly trying to say is I think if you have some experience exposure to those sorts of things they're kind of like a mini toxin you build up a resistance to them the opposite of that of course is that If you try in the absence and you shelter like we're talking about children and young adults here, you helicopter them too much like as parents we often do today as opposed to the way I grew up.

01:07:52

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: I don't know about you Trevor, but like like f first of all my parents never did like what I did with my son who's now 20 like you know take them when they're little they take them to school and do all this and I was shocked to learn. And I don't know what it's like in your audience listeners, but I was shocked to learn in Toronto because I thought like I went to school. I remember going to school by myself, kindergarten, walking there at five.

Trevor McKee: Mhm.

Rob McMullan: and now you are not allowed to let your child walk in the city of Toronto to school by themselves until they are 12. earlier if you have an elder sibling 12 is ludicrous where like you're not they're

Trevor McKee: Interesting. Wow.

Rob McMullan: missing out because of that and ultimately that's going to weaken them and that's going to affect their happiness in the future. So, it kind of goes back to some of the things we were talking about earlier and I suggest like those things you're worried about that you think are challenging.

01:08:54

Rob McMullan: Do them right. I I think you get out there, you you build up your resistance, you build up your power, you are aware of your power. One of the funny little things I do audience that I do think has some small but appreciable difference makes a difference for me in terms of my happiness is when I accomplish something even small. I literally pat myself on the back three times.

Trevor McKee: celebrate it.

Rob McMullan: That's what I do. I'm like, "Good job, bro." So, you know, you I think you got to you got to push toward these things.

Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah.

Rob McMullan: for your children.

Trevor McKee: Yeah. It's it's it's again so yeah celebrating happiness brings me to kind of the second part of my story about my the worst cast disaster scenario generator, right? And so like if if you're always looking at what's the worst that can happen, that's going to send you down a dark path. But like there's also kind of the what's the best that can happen and reality is going to be somewhere in between those two extremes you know and and and so being yes and and part of part of that is also rewarding small victories you know like okay I didn't get this done and the funny thing is actually I was just telling Rob that I'm using AI for assistance in coding and like

01:10:18

Trevor McKee: it's built right into the coding app now and it's it's great because it'll like it'll help refactor some code that you're working on. but sometimes it can get stuck, you know, and and uh but the way that AI is built, it's so sort of sickopantic and really wants kind of to to get that approval that it that you know that that it it can't handle sort of failure. And so then it was like well we didn't get this done but like look we did answer the first question you asked about whether like these numbers were exactly but it's sort of like you know but but

Rob McMullan: which you've already forgotten about by this time probably.

Trevor McKee: there's there's something there which is the fact that you know celebrate the small victories even if you're still grinding out the path to eventual success you know and and that's certainly something that you know kind of company and that's something that you can incorporate you But maybe shifting from kind of personal things to more organizational things that um you know uh startups many different startups have different cultures and the ones that do well or or you want to be careful about which which culture you go into and that it aligns with like your own style because I think I've been in places where it was very much

01:11:37

Trevor McKee: kind of like crack the whip and we've got to get this done and there was never any reward put out for having done something well, you know, even small things or like oh we didn't hit this revenue

Rob McMullan: Yeah. Clear. Yeah.

Trevor McKee: milestone and so you know but we got pretty close and so you know so so it's it's a difference in tone and that's something that you can teach yourself you know is your your self-talk you can you can modify it from well I didn't do that to well I was able to achieve this, this, and this. And okay, yes, I didn't get that done, but I mean, I did something else, you know, like for myself. I I finally got space to assemble my standing desk in the basement this weekend, even though I didn't get some of the other stuff I wanted to do done, but like well, I've been trying to do that for multiple years and did it.

Rob McMullan: There you go. Congrats.

Trevor McKee: So, clap tap on the back as you said.

01:12:31

Rob McMullan: Chat on the back for you. You know, It

Trevor McKee: And and so don't don't never be like the more you can make that a habit of of celebrating the small victories either yourself or as part of whatever team you're a part of that's that's a great thing you know and that that that can do wonders for your your state of mind and and and happiness.

Rob McMullan: doesn't and it doesn't always have to be in the present. Meaning it's not just it's you there's a scale thing. It's it's a big accomplishment I've just done. It can be a little one and you know you don't have to have eaten whole elephants as it were. it doesn't have to just be a very current thing that you've just done that you pat yourself on the back for. or you do a SY as we say in Canada, celebration. That's a hockey thing, I think.

Trevor McKee: Sure.

Rob McMullan: Celebration, s but it can you can you can remember some of your past accomplishments, right?

01:13:30

Rob McMullan: And and and replay them in your mind and

Trevor McKee: Well, yes. Yes. again, part of the the the depressive view or the anxious view of the world is to sort of see like, oh, I'm a failure. all of this and and absolutely, you know, like again reframing that mindset from one of you know, like obsessing on the negatives to obsessing on the positives. Like you know, I had a brilliant friend of mine who who who had this mental model of vos. So like is what he called them. They were like the voices in his head for lack of a better phrase. And and so he had this internal dialogue always going on inside his brain of like different which I think is a way of sort of characterizing kind of like how people how you think you know and and how he thought at least and you know you can you can imagine just as if it were an external audience there's an internal audience that your your mind is speaking to and you want to be careful careful what words that you know your your mind uses.

01:14:44

Trevor McKee: If your mind is continually saying I'm a failure, I'm a failure. I'm a failure. Well, that's going to sort of self-reinforce. Whereas if your mind can say, well, you know, there's these things maybe there's even there's these things I've got to work on is better than I'm just a purely I'm a failure.

Rob McMullan: Yeah.

Trevor McKee: But better than that even is like I've been successful in the past. I'm going to be successful in the future and this is only a temporary roadblock, you know.

Rob McMullan: Hey.

Trevor McKee: the the the extent to which you can change your beliefs about what you know challenges you're facing from being these permanent impenetrable barriers to being something that's temporary and something that you can overcome is going to reinforce that resilience that you're going to need to get through you know the next phase of whatever you're doing. And you know, everyone talks about like how, you know, like my job is difficult. Like the the thing to think about is that all jobs are difficult, right?

01:15:41

Trevor McKee: it's there's always going to be challenges in your life no matter what you're doing, you know? uh I mean you know there's always going to be challenges that you're going to be facing and the mindset that you take when you face those challenges is going to have a big effect on how you can eventually overcome them. Right?

Rob McMullan: I I think you recognize there's always going to be challenges. You can look at that as a negative or a positive because who would want to live in a world where there are no challenges? I I I wouldn't. We We would just be on our backs.

Trevor McKee: Yes.

Rob McMullan: Yeah. And we might be sm I don't think so. I think we'd be unh but yes it's the wall kind of mentality or outcome.

Trevor McKee: It's the Wall-E the Wall-E world. Yeah. And I mean like they've they've done they've done that social experiment of like there were rats that were put in this fa this uh maze where like everything was given to them and there were there were no limitations in terms of what happened.

01:16:40

Trevor McKee: And eventually that that the entire society collapsed because like there was Yeah. It's not necessarily a healthy thing to just have be spoonfed things.

Rob McMullan: Yeah.

Trevor McKee: Yeah. Your whole day Yes.

Rob McMullan: No, it's not. I was going to add a couple of things onto what you're saying. Your your attitude and and the person you believe most. I would love to look this up after the fact or maybe one of the commenters who reads this if they know something about this or can find out something about this. It seems to me that long ago that I'd read. I'd love to see some scientific evidence around the veracity of this, but that the person that we believe more than anybody is oursel ourselves. And so what that means is in in exactly what your point was before that we need to be careful about what words we say because we believe what we say about ourselves. Like if you say I'm stupid or I'm a failure, I'm whatever, I can never do this.

01:17:34

Rob McMullan: Well, you know, becomes a self-fulfilling, self-reinforcing prophecy or those words. We we tend it goes right into our brains, right?

Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah.

Rob McMullan: Others we often tend to be very skeptical of, right? We we we pride ourselves on this, but we don't filter ourselves enough.

Trevor McKee: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Rob McMullan: And so I I strongly suggest yes, you really take it seriously what you say yourself. I I I it bothers me if you know I I on occasion my son has said, "Oh, I'm an idiot or whatever." or like you know all of us have said this but don't say that and have a growth mindset you know oh I'm not good at this and like I can't I can never do math well you know I think all of us can improve I think we're realistic but I think your attitude what you say to yourself how it's self-inccultation it's almost like your own religion right it's your own operating system we have to be

Trevor McKee: Yep. Yep.

Rob McMullan: very careful and I think again on the attitude thing I was going to say you know celebrating small things rather than just like okay and you know unless I unless I hit it out of the park I'm no good that's nonsense right and it's only going to deplete your energy and keeping your energy high is very high and very important for your happiness right all the things that you can do for your energy like the

01:18:44

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: people you surround yourself with right you want to surround yourself with people that care are positive like cultivating an optimistic attitude in part that is who you hang out with what they say what you say to yourself what

Trevor McKee: Mhm.

Rob McMullan: food you enjoy test, right? if you're eating processed foods that like bad microbes like last on the last podcast I was wearing Nirvana shirt and I think I referenced this I'll reference it again but you know I you know I would

Trevor McKee: Really?

Rob McMullan: love to think that somebody like Kurt Cobain who suffered from you know pretty severe severe depression to the point of course where he died by suicide you know but he would he those of you who know him beyond just the music or about him beyond just the music you know his favorite foods were terrible like you know drinking pop and or soda as as the Americans would say and and craft dinner and that kind of garbage, right? And that just feeds the bad bacteria where all the good happiness chemicals.

01:19:43

Rob McMullan: So, you got to feed yourself well like do what?

Trevor McKee: Read your mind and your body. Well, absolutely.

Rob McMullan: Yeah. If if you can grow cabbage and your potatoes in your backyard and have that every day, that that's all, I think, good stuff. I don't know about the potatoes so much, but certainly the cabbages and certainly the Guinness and the whiskey. No, forget that part of him. about, you know, all getting out and putting yourself in front of people making friends and and being a decent I I remember like he would come over from Dublin when I was a kid and I always loved it and like I remember he's such a generous person like you I clearly remember passing somebody it was funny you remember as a kid I was really small and down at Harbor Front Queens Key there in Toronto I remember passing some fellow was like begging for money and I think he had I think he had a a violin or something.

Trevor McKee: Mhm. Right.

Rob McMullan: Of course, my granddad gave him something.

01:20:33

Rob McMullan: So, helping other people. It doesn't have to be money. but if you can, please do give.

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: if you're you're stinking rich, please give some of it.

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: Not just to your family because that's not really giving, is it?

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: give your time.

Trevor McKee: Well, give and it can be give you your time, right? If you don't have money, you can give your time.

Rob McMullan: Give your advice. I want to meet Yeah, I want to meet you.

Trevor McKee: You can volunteer. Like I I volunteer with my kids scout troop and it's it's fantastic. You know, I get to I get to as as some some of the other volunteers say, it's the like two hours of the week where they're not in front of a screen. And but you know, we get to do all sorts of fun stuff. And like I mean like the plan for the the plan for the troop is sometimes well like what do you what do you want to do that's fun?

01:21:15

Trevor McKee: Let's let's turn that into a into an you know into a meeting kind of thing. So you know and so I think it's it's definitely volunt yeah give of yourself or your time or or or yeah or donate and my yeah my my grandfather used to say had this saying that I think I I I used to you know I I used to feel sad that I had no shoes until I saw a man who had no feet you know and and so there's

Rob McMullan: Yeah.

Trevor McKee: there's There's lots of there's yeah it gives absolute perspective on and he he grew up very difficult and he grew up orphaned and he was able very successful entrepreneur and you know but he always had that

Rob McMullan: Put it in perspective.

Trevor McKee: in his mind and and in his will he donated to a lot of different he and his sister both donated to a lot of different like organizations orphan orphanages and all of that sort of thing because you know they they knew where they came from kind you know and and and I think it's it's it pays well and I mean like one example that we can point to even in Toronto I

01:22:20

Rob McMullan: terrific.

Trevor McKee: think we just heard I heard on the news the other night coming back from a scout thing that that the the food bank right the food bank of Toronto is going to be experiencing the most visits this year ever like four million individual client visits this year.

Rob McMullan: Oh man.

Trevor McKee: So, if you, you know, even if you've got some spare non-p perishable goods, some cans of whatever that you're not using, bring it to a local I think it's just a local fireh hall or something, and they'll make sure it gets to the food bank. so I think it's it's definitely, you know, there's there's, there's there's h happiness in helping your fellow man, you know.

Rob McMullan: 100% because we're, you know, it sounds, it sounds cliche, but I think there there is real truth in this. I mean, we're all connected, right? We're all we're all on this earth together, and we're all human.

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: And it doesn't mean you have to invite these people always into your home and befriend them, but you can give and help your fellow human even if you don't always agree with them.

01:23:34

Rob McMullan: we won't get political, not now at least, but you know, I was very impressed by the widow of this fellow who was assassinated in the US recently, right?

Trevor McKee: It's

Rob McMullan: And so there's a lot of acrimony and division there because people you know may really agree with his message and some people who conversely really disagree and so there's a lot of division and some people were calling for violence and all these terrible things like can we take the temperature down but the widow you'll know who I'm talking about she came out after like within a week I think of him being assassinated so I forgive him you know wow like that just blew me away and and they're they're you know they happen to be Christian people. I'm I'm not a religious person at all, but like I respect that and you know I think you're you're being true to your belief of the Christian belief. I grew up Catholic. Go figure with my name. but yeah, you're supposed to like that man whether you believe he was, you know, the Messiah or you know the God or not.

01:24:46

Rob McMullan: He I think most people would agree that he's a historical figure and was a very good person and so you know forgiveness was at the heart of that and so for her to do that and follow through on her beliefs and you know clearly prove that you know she's more than just a yeah like we've all encountered really like terrible people in our lives and it's hard to forgive but like I that would be the

Trevor McKee: And there's I mean there's there's something to learn from that for for whatever you're involved in, you know, like I Yeah. Yeah.

Rob McMullan: hardest thing like if somebody killed my spouse. I don't think I could forgive that. Like, no. But good for her.

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: So, but I I see the value in that.

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: Um.

Trevor McKee: And and and I mean like I think holding what there's this phrase, right? Holding a grudge is just letting someone live rent free in your head. So you know so there there is there is the concept that rather than obsessing over someone that did you wrong you know to to sort of let it go and I mean it's incredible

01:25:34

Rob McMullan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Trevor McKee: that yeah as you say she was able to do that and but I think there's a there's a general thought there that just being able to move on from a tragic event or the or being

Rob McMullan: There you go.

Trevor McKee: able to forgive someone who's wronged you and come back to you know some semblance of of normality. there's there's a process right there's kind of a healing process involved there and and it's that process is dependent on your buyin. So to the extent that you can you know like in your own time um you know even make a I think I had a a friend who I was giving advice to and I figured that advice actually worked well for me as well was like write them a letter. Write them a letter and get everything out on the page of all of the get all that negativity out of your head onto a page and then you know what? Light that page on fire.

01:26:51

Trevor McKee: just burn it away. And that way, you know, like just just purge purge yourself, you know, use an exercise to purge yourself of that negativity because otherwise it's just going to eat you up inside and it's not going to be

Rob McMullan: That's a good idea. Yes. You're taking you're taking the poison that you wish they they had taken. Really? You're poisoning yourself, right? So, why go there either way?

Trevor McKee: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

Rob McMullan: So interesting.

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: well I mean did do you have anything else more to add or yeah and I might add one thing or maybe allude to it that we will elaborate on in

Trevor McKee: I I think we had a few more things on the on the thing, but I think that they could, you know, food and happiness and relationships and happiness that could be a whole whole other podcast dive too.

Rob McMullan: a in a future episode but that is you know because we don't want to seem all kind of what's the word like polyiana or proitizing and this and that and all goody goody good two shoes because we all like the odd luxury, right?

01:27:50

Rob McMullan: Some of us more than others. It doesn't have to be that $250 million yacht that that billionaire who who casters on my my seeking happiness thing has. But you know there are there indulgences that that you have u that really make you kind of give you a little squirt of happiness if chemicals if you will like is there something that you like to do would you splurge on something or a luxury or you know I don't know last I don't remember seeing you with a Gucci handbag or anything like that man bag. Shout out to your lovely wife who does love Gucci handbags.

Trevor McKee: yeah.

Rob McMullan: Anyway,

Trevor McKee: Well, you know what I love to do is is baking. So, like we have extra we have extra bananas left over that are going bad and make some banana bread out of it, you know, and and it's just something that's it's simple. It's it's productive and it gives me, you know, something to feed my family at the end of the at the end of the day or like, you know, banana bread for the week for for kids snacks and stuff.

01:28:57

Trevor McKee: So, I think that's really something that that I enjoy that again, you know, gets me up off the screen and and doing something.

Rob McMullan: Yeah, for me I'd say the things that I like that I really like to do, I love to travel when I can. The problem is for so many of us, it's either okay, you have the time but not the money or you have the money but not the time. You know, having those two overlap is very important.

Trevor McKee: Right. Right.

Rob McMullan: And then of course then if you're any anything like me having the person available to go with. So I was super happy going back to Paris in November with my wife and then my good friend who used to be in my band years ago in in Tokyo.

Trevor McKee: Yes.

Rob McMullan: I'm like he's in London. I'm like hey you want to go to Paris? I'm going to be here then. He's like I love Paris. I'll be there.

Trevor McKee: Awesome.

Rob McMullan: So you know those sorts of things are terrific.

01:29:48

Rob McMullan: Those are experiences but yeah I love good food too.

Trevor McKee: Yes. experiences more than like you know objects. I would say if you're going to if you're sp if you're gonna spend I mean the best time my family has had in recent past was my parents 50th wedding anniversary.

Rob McMullan: Yeah. Not so much object. Yeah.

Trevor McKee: They bought us they brought us all on a Disney cruise and and it was just fantastic because like there were like I have three kids so there were like three levels of like you know youth kind

Rob McMullan: Oh.

Trevor McKee: of activity places that they that the three kids could all go to and one of them showed up at like midnight with like a like a a two two cones of ice cream he got from the you know

Rob McMullan: Yeah. That's just like kids would go gaga for that, wouldn't they?

Trevor McKee: all the Yeah. Yeah. So, but you know like they they they we were very lucky that you know that we were able to do that.

01:30:45

Trevor McKee: but it was you know truly an experience and then we got a couple days of downtime afterwards just hanging out with them in their in their place in Florida you know and and it was so it really was uh amazing and you know I think I think it's it's high up on my list of like you know as soon as things do start to kick off again for for my company that the next thing I want to do is do that again you know and go on a cruise with I'll bring my parents to kind of repay the fact that they they they took us that time.

Rob McMullan: Cruz. Bring the kids.

Trevor McKee: So, yeah.

Rob McMullan: Yeah. And you're gonna bring the kids.

Trevor McKee: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Rob McMullan: Yeah. I I like to say, you know, for people who don't have children and wonder what it's like, it's like you just you just made me realize this because I'm sure your kids were like this on that thing.

01:31:22

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: Having kids is like having a bunch of drunken midgets around. So, I don't have any drunken midget friends. And I know that's not the term. It's little people. but I don't know. I kind of think that's a pretty good analogy for little kids sometimes. At least the ones that that are related to me.

Trevor McKee: They're there. Yes. Their their frontal loes have not fully matured. Yes.

Rob McMullan: Yeah.

Trevor McKee: And the frontal lobe is the first to turn off when you're drunk.

Rob McMullan: Yeah. Well, and maybe we can we can kind of segue out of this episode on that note.

Trevor McKee: So absolutely.

Rob McMullan: It's like, you know, remember how to do things that that make you feel like a little kid. Like I I was the other day I went to to Wyinners.

Trevor McKee: Hey, welcome.

Rob McMullan: And so for our American friends and there's like TJ Maxx. I don't know what would it be elsewhere, but anyway, you know, I was I was in Wyinners and with my wife and I was trying something on and I was in the the the the change room and I'm like I heard some music and I'm like I just started buffing away.

01:32:31

Rob McMullan: I was like a little kid being a maniac like in my think moments and allow yourself those moments and have

Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah. And and yeah, like remember what you were like as a kid and remember what made you what made you laugh or have fun as a kid. And and don't be afraid to do a bit more of that, you know, like absolutely. I think I think very much uh looking at the world with childlike wonder as opposed to kind of cynical, you know, eyes is is Yes.

Rob McMullan: Yes. Yeah. Let's end the cynicism right now. Giggle. We start the giggle party. The giggle political party where whole policy is all directed towards making people giggle.

Trevor McKee: making people laugh. I love it.

Rob McMullan: That's awesome. Okay. Well, thank you so much everyone for joining us today. We hope to see you in future episodes. and yeah, hi Octane friends. And again, that's I'm Rob McMullen and Trevor McKe and we look forward to seeing you in the future.

01:33:28

Rob McMullan: We'll be having some some guests come up, so look forward to that.

Trevor McKee: Yes.

Rob McMullan: Thank you m so much.

Trevor McKee: Yeah.

Rob McMullan: Stay happy