How to become a creative genius!

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Rob McMullan and Trevor McKee discussed the importance of leveraging AI as a tool for business, with Trevor noting that most creative ideas often come from allowing the subconscious mind to ruminate on problems, such as taking a break or walking, rather than actively staring at a blank screen. Rob countered the idea of an "us versus them" mentality regarding AI, suggesting that technology can be used to stimulate thinking and enhance human creativity; but that nevertheless we should advocate for the necessity of cultivating "creative genius" to compete in the age of increasing automation and AI, suggesting strategies like breaking rules and embracing the unknown. The conversation covered the need for adaptability, overcoming perfectionism, the power of collaborative "jamming," and the value of unlearning and relearning to maintain creativity.

DETAILS

The Imperative of Creative Genius in the Age of AI 
Nature of Creativity and Overcoming Blocks 
Technology as a Creative Stimulant 
Embracing the Unknown and Breaking Rules 
Cultivating Creative Habits and Overcoming Perfectionism 
Brainstorming and the Jamming Analogy 
AI's Role in the Creative Process 
Learning, Unlearning, Relearning and Embracing the "Storm" 
The Art of Jazz and Uninhibited Expression 
Cultural Blending and Creative Success 
Creativity in Engineering and Problem-Solving
Overcoming Fear of Failure and Asking Bold Questions 
The Future of Creativity Amidst AI and Ethics 
The Role of Routine and Novelty in Creativity 
Creating a Safe Space and Achieving Flow State 
Importance of Downtime and Self-Awareness for Creativity 
The Role of Environment and Social Circles in Creativity 
The Value of Diversity and Spontaneity 
Instinctual Decision-Making and Creative Constraints 
Discussion on Modern Music and the Challenges for Artists 
Future of Work and Entrepreneurship in the Age of AI

The High Octane Friends podcast is where Rob McMullan & Trevor McKee discuss a variety of subjects in an authentic and unvarnished way.

Rob McMullan LinkedIn
linkedin.com/in/robmcmullan
Trevor McKee LinkedIn
linkedin.com/in/trevordmckee
High Octane Friends website
highoctanefriends.com

Transcript

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Rob McMullan: Well, hello, good morning, good day mate, high octane friends, mates, wherever you may be in time or space. If you are just joining in from Mars, you might find a little bit of a bandwidth delay there. but welcome Elon. you know, in the future because that's where we really would, I know, speaking personally, that's where I would like you to be.
Trevor McKee: Well, didn't you hear Jane Goodall did a interview that was only published after her death and and she was like, "Yeah, no, they should all get on a ship and go out tomorrow. Oh,
Rob McMullan: Yeah. Well, good on her.
 
 
00:13:30
 
Rob McMullan: So, good on good. I see. So, she was living up to her name. yeah, that that's that's very unfortunate that she's gone. But she was 91, wasn't she? 90. Yeah.
Trevor McKee: she was really old. Yeah.
Rob McMullan: Yeah.
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: What a terrific trailblazer. and you know very courageous to go out to was it like Uganda or Tanzania like that. She was like 17 or 18 years old or something like that. Really young. And to work I think she worked with Lewis Leaky like a really famous apologist right folks today we are going to talk about becoming you know how to become a creative genius and this is a big
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: topic and we're going to talk about why this is really important. One one of the reasons why it's important is now you know because of the increase of automation particularly with regard to information and ideas almost or quasi ideas through AI we are going to be increasingly competing with these bots if you will and so what does that mean for humans so you know one of the important things that we'll need to optimize to be remain competitive is how can you unleash your
 
 
00:14:46
 
Trevor McKee: Mhm.
Rob McMullan: inner genius? And I I believe it's kind of like strength. You know, if you're forced into a situation where you absolutely must show your strength, for example, if your child were trapped under a car, you will find the strength. And I think this is one way to look at problems. You know, I am a big believer in the idea that necessity is the mother of invention. and we have seen this time and time again in Silicon Valley. You know, several years ago, certainly when venture capital was flowing and you know a lot of companies were not at all short of investment funds and yet they were that makes you kind makes your thinking flabby, right? because people what they tend to default and I've been in a tech startup like this where you know I think at one point we were spending $80,000 a week on Facebook ads like that's a significant budget and some people weigh more but it is it is not doesn't necessarily yield the best results and if you look at military there are other examples Ukraine Ukraine Ukraine is way outclassed in terms of military equipment
 
 
00:15:54
 
Trevor McKee: Mhm.
Rob McMullan: and money in their war against the terrible Russians. and but look, you know, they have not taken Ukraine and I don't think they will either. And so they've been forced to be creative and more is is often less in terms of results. So, I think again necessities necessities the mother of invention, but we're going to talk about how to be more creative. And again, if you get one idea audience member from this podcast that's a gem, then and it's useful to you, I think we will have done our jobs, right, Trevor?
Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. No, I I think it's absolutely, you know, and and there's there's so much to creativity and I think it's it's often difficult to and especially I think when you're in it, you know, like I think you the people that are most insecure about their own creativity are you know, artists and and people that that that are doing this sort of professionally. And and I mean the challenge is that sometimes it's just you you need to adapt to when those creative um bursts kind of happen and not the other way around sometimes, you know, like that that it's it's not that you can just sit down at your computer in front of a blank screen and say, "Okay, time to be creative now."
 
 
00:17:32
 
Trevor McKee: because that's almost certainly the the surefire way to sort of drive any any creative uh aspects away from you and you know kind of writer's block is a real thing where where you know you you can get stuck and and so I think and and you know you often hear of or you you think of these things where the most creative sometimes you'll come up with an idea even just like in in the shower you know and and why why Does that happen? Well, it's because your mind is off of actively working on stuff. But then that gives your sort of subconscious kind of time to ruminate on what you're doing. And that's often where some of the most creative ideas can come from is from, you know, taking a break, taking a walk, um you know, doing something else. if you're feeling stuck as a way of kind of helping you to to unblock that that create you know the the creativity and and get yourself engaged a bit more.
 
 
00:18:36
 
Trevor McKee: So yeah
Rob McMullan: Yeah, and I would add a couple things to that. One is like since you know since you know we were talking earlier about AI the continued growth and proliferation of that and how that behooves us all to become more creative. I think it's not necessarily just an us versus them kind of scenario like to be more creative you can also use AI to stimulate some of your thinking. So I think that using the technology it's it seems counterintuitive almost you know ironic but to become more human and more creative you can you can use technology you can't really force creativity it doesn't work very easily I mean you talked about writer's block you can't force it although I would say that action begets action which begets you know being creative so just getting started like if you're a writer just write something down.
Trevor McKee: Yes.
Rob McMullan: Stop overthinking.
Trevor McKee: Yep.
Rob McMullan: And sometimes pre-thinking is bad because you're importing into your mind all those systems and rules and everything. And you know, if you think back to some of the most creative geniuses who did things very differently, I'm thinking immediately painter Salvador Deli who's one of my favorites.
 
 
00:19:40
 
Trevor McKee: Yep.
Rob McMullan: And these are wild people who live way outside the rules.
Trevor McKee: Mhm.
Rob McMullan: And so you have to suspend reality and the rules. So how do you do that? But getting started is a big thing.
Trevor McKee: Right. Mhm.
Rob McMullan: You talked about adaptability. How do you become more adaptable? You think because I think we all need to be more adaptable because change is accelerating.
Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think you know embracing the unknown rather than fearing it is is one kind of option. You know, I think again going back to mindset, you know, having a mindset that that you're excited, you know, at least even psyching yourself up to be excited about the day ahead rather than worried about all of the things that are, you know, in front of you might be a good way. This is almost me. I should I should listen to my own advice because I think that's that's how I woke up today was like, "Oh my god, I've got all of these things."
 
 
00:20:50
 
Trevor McKee: But but yeah, you know,
Rob McMullan: Yeah. Or or I suppose you could go the the the Timothy Liry route. The Timothy Liry was a a famous guy in the 60s and 70s, a a Harvard prof. I don't even remember what subject he ostensibly was teaching. but you know, I think he did did art and all sorts of things, but he was famous for tune in, turn on, drop out. I think that's very important from the perspective of getting things done, being innovative, being creative, being inventive. and you kind of have to pull back. Sometimes you need to break and bend rules. I'm not advocating being cruel to anybody or any community.
Trevor McKee: Yes.
Rob McMullan: I don't think that that is anything that you want to do ever. but yeah, it is a kind of tune in turn on drop out and I would kind of reverse the order on Larry. I would say kind of drop out at least temporarily from that that crushing. There's a lot of propriety if you will in society increasingly and perhaps this is because every everyone can be a commentator in the age of of social media.
 
 
00:22:01
 
Rob McMullan: So anything you say even if it's absolutely brilliant. It it's useful to know that you're going to get blowback anyway, right?
Trevor McKee: Yes. Yes.
Rob McMullan: Try to be a little fearless do it anyway. Timothy Liry also went the route of like he he was famous for taking psychedelics like LSD and psilocybin like magic mushrooms and stuff and you know there are lots of cases of artists musical artists for example who do that have done it David Bowie had done that at one point he there's a guy who kept on reinventing himself a willingness to change I think is foundational if you want to be creative genius
Trevor McKee: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. Willingness to change and and willingness to embrace the unknown and and and and be comfortable kind of not knowing and let the answers come to you, you know. I think I mean I was just looking up some some quotes you know Maya Angelou said you can't use up creativity. The more you use the more you have.
 
 
00:22:57
 
Rob McMullan: Oh yeah.
Trevor McKee: So it's almost getting into and you know again it's it's practicing that art. And I have I had a used to have a friend who would you know give himself an hour a day to just sit down and come up with new things. and you know and and that was I I think block out time for creative thinking where you're not like worried about what the next meeting is going to be or that sort of thing.
Rob McMullan: Oh wow, that's great. So like block out
Trevor McKee: and and and let your let your mind wander, you know, and and then the other thing is is also I know for me uh perfectionism can often stand in the way of creativity because you know like the first draft is always going to be GH, you know, but but at least it's a first draft, you know, and and and being able to to get over your unwillingness to put out something that's imperfect is often the way to at least get something, you know, new that that okay, it's it's you know, it's it's going to start out meh and then over time it's going to get better, you know.
 
 
00:24:08
 
Rob McMullan: Yeah.
Trevor McKee: So yes yes yes and yeah there was another quote make more bad stuff that's the path to good stuff by Austin clean and show your work so yeah
Rob McMullan: You made me think to finish you need to start, you know. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Perfectionism. Perfectionism is absolutely problematic. There are areas and industries where we want to ultimately aim for perfect. We don't have to start out that way.
Trevor McKee: well this is just it you know like you can you utilize those tendencies after you've got the initial draft out to sort of improve it, you know. but you need to sort of suspend.
Rob McMullan: Yeah.
Trevor McKee: I think I had a I had a friend who was very good at just kind of like why don't we suspend all of our pre preconceptions about you know the world and let's just step into kind of a creative space where any idea no matter how zany it sounds is you know is is worthy of at least being mentioned and then we can kind of iterate on it and I think his his approach was somewhat uh I liked it.
 
 
00:25:20
 
Trevor McKee: He he he called it sort of jamming in the sense of almost a jazz musician group getting together and throwing ideas up and seeing what sticks and then you know iterating off of that. Well, what if we did this instead of that? And I think that was a very a very interesting window into you know the creative process that I hadn't sort of experienced before. where you know I think I'm I I have a lot more of a loud voice in my head that tells me that like that's not coming out well. You need to adjust that. You need to make it better. you know that but that that sort of critical voice critical eye um is is actually a is a barrier to brainstorming you know and I mean like a lot of times in in corporate like brainstorming sessions they'll they'll try to say like any you know throw out any idea any idea is a good one let's get something on the table and and oftentimes I think even in in research what I found is that the people who are kind of new to the area can often come up with these new ideas or new approaches that you know maybe it's something that I'd thought of before but I'd sort of you know
 
 
00:26:40
 
Trevor McKee: oh well I don't I don't think that's necessarily that useful but but even just voicing that you know new idea caused other people to sort of think about it and then say well no but this you know this element of that might have some merit and then And so then you're you're sort of gradually crawling up this ladder from you know from sort of a starting point into something that's a bit more more clear. one of the things about AI though that there was actually a recent MIT study that where they looked at brain scans of people that either used AI first and then sort of tried to adapt and change it versus people that like wrote down their ideas first and then used the AI. was that there was actually there was a a deficit in so the people that came up with their own ideas and then used the AI kind of got further than the people that use the AI first because the problem there is that your your you know your mind sort of gets set by those initial sort of ideas that that the AI brings up which may or may not be that you know innovative or new.
 
 
00:27:57
 
Trevor McKee: They're just sort of again rehashed from, you know, the usual way large language models like they're coming up with something.
Rob McMullan: Yeah, AI doesn't actually create new stuff, does it?
Trevor McKee: It's a Yeah.
Rob McMullan: Not really. yeah, I I wanted to
Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It can I mean AI is great at sort of telling you you know fleshing out sort of an idea that you might give it first, but it's not you know when you ask it to come up with something new. Okay. Yeah. It'll it'll give you some examples, but but the the I think it's it's your looking at those examples and picking the one that is the best representation is is the best way to sort of get it it that's your creative process. You know, reviewing those from either an aesthetic perspective if it's a picture or you know, from from sort of a a a writing analysis perspective. But but basically the the cog the deficit that was you know the the deficit that came from having your own ideas people ended up with more you know kind of a more broad variety of ideas when they wrote things down first and then had the AI sort of iterate off of that than when they didn't.
 
 
00:29:14
 
Trevor McKee: And then those people never really caught up even if they did more of their own. So, it's definitely, you know, it's it's definitely I think you wanna again, you want to take the first stab at it and and then use whatever the AI's you know, input is to sort of
Rob McMullan: Yeah.
Trevor McKee: maybe expand from that into different areas.
Rob McMullan: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, as it stands now anyway, that kind of AI is it's a tool and I think you're in the driver's seat.
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: So that makes sense to me that the people who do some of their own original thinking first and then use AI as a tool to kind of flesh it out or catalyze further ideas I think makes a lot of sense. I you know just a few things came to me when you were talking there is like some good some good tips for how people can think about stuff to be more creative to you know ultimately we want to become creative geniuses and I think frankly it it's going to be necessary to to survive in the in the modern world but you throughout life I think it's important in throughout your productive life you want to learn unlearn and relearn so learn you need to have a basis of knowledge or how to do things and all that comes from that.
 
 
00:30:32
 
Rob McMullan: But then as new new facts present themselves and systems and environments change, you need to unlearn some things. You need to realize, okay, that's no longer valid or perhaps I've learned now what I thought was correct before is not correct. So unlearn it. Throw it out. Be willing to adapt again. Be have this idea that you need to change your thinking. Some people are extremely rigid. I don't I don't want to delve into the controversy of religion too much here, but I think you know people who have certain customs one category of which of course which is religion.
Trevor McKee: Mhm.
Rob McMullan: I think if you're if you're super rigid about that, you're probably not a creative person, right? And I guess there is some real merit to that. you know, for the record, I'm probably the least religious person you'll ever meet. but you know, I respect people's right to do that stuff. It's just not for me because that for me is kind of the antithesis of and for one of a less progressive word a projorative word.
 
 
00:31:30
 
Rob McMullan: you know it it's not progressive at all. It's very hard to unlearn something if you're just always thinking the same way. And then the third part of that is you know learn unlearn relearn. Okay now learn something new. the other thing that came to me was you talked about like brainstorming like how you do brainstorming. So I think with regard to creativity the emphasis in that should be the brainstorm is composed of course of two words but I think the emphasis should come on the storm. The storm should come first not the brain. In other words the overanalytic over analyzing things really doesn't make for a very good storm.
Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Rob McMullan: Make the storm first. Create lots of stuff. Throw lots of jell-o against the wall and then analyze it afterward. Let's pick out and you know collaboratively this is very helpful.
Trevor McKee: Mhm.
Rob McMullan: And the the other thing I was thinking that is like it's kind of related with regard to ideas.
 
 
00:32:24
 
Rob McMullan: Edit after, not beforehand.
Trevor McKee: Yes.
Rob McMullan: And give you an example.
Trevor McKee: Yes.
Rob McMullan: My wife who is like, you know, on an IQ, standard IQ test, like f****** light years ahead of me. Like she's actually a genius on the IQ score. I get this. I'm no dummy, but she's ultra bright, but I'm not analytically like at her level. But if I'm anything, I am very much a creative person. And so I'll give you a little example. I used to we don't do this so much anymore, but it used to really irritate me like 10 or 20 years ago. Like okay, a simple mundane thing like where are we going to go for dinner tonight? It's like let's think about it. And my way would be like okay, I'm just going to kind of barf out everything, you know, even though I know that some of these ideas are going to be immediately or later, you know, kind of criticized. It would be like, okay, well, we could go to Nou, you know, really fancy restaurant canoe.
 
 
00:33:16
 
Rob McMullan: we could go to McDonald's. We could like all over the map. And so McDonald or Jackasser is like one of these family things or Chili's for example here in the US and she would just at every step when I would say this she would like no that's not the right
Trevor McKee: Mhm.
Rob McMullan: thing. Let's just get all the ideas out first. So I I am very much of that mind that you're putting barriers in front.
Trevor McKee: Okay.
Rob McMullan: You're not going to get the best result if you're if you're if you're editing before rather than after. So yeah, and I as you talked about jazz, like improvis improvisational jazz in particular, right?
Trevor McKee: ready.
Rob McMullan: And then musicians will start out and they'll probably have a lot of crap in there, but that's probably how you come up with genius stuff.
Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah. And and I mean the interesting thing about jazz is is that you know like there are there are still some rules that you're following you know in terms of melodic and and sort of you know rhythm and and and these kinds of things.
 
 
00:34:15
 
Trevor McKee: But but it's sort of knowing when some of those rules can be bent and knowing when you know kind of almost just having that musical sort of talent kind of innately within you as you're participating, you know, is is is part of the way through making a good jazz record, you know, is is sort of knowing when knowing where to walk within that sort ort of, you know, bass melody that goes up and down and all over the place. is and and knowing how to again bend those rules is is a is a way to you know uh make music that still has some sort of melody and some some you know ear appealing thing to it but that you know but that that at the same time comes up with something new. So yeah,
Rob McMullan: Yeah. Well, you talked about like something that is appealing to the ear. You know, I I am a big I am a big lover of melody in music.
 
 
00:35:25
 
Rob McMullan: So, which is why I'm usually not a fan of like hip-hop rap music because it it tends to lack melody. So, I'm not the person to talk about that. But that's primarily why I don't like it. I also don't like it because a lot of times the words that they that they say they rap about seem very misogynistic and kind of like gangster like so I I can't relate to that. But if if I think about the music that I really love and the musicians I really love, like when I was in high school, I was crazy about the American band Van Halen, the the original version, right? the other versions I don't care for. But anyway, like Van Halen was is was kind of well known for a lot of those albums. They just went in and they just recorded all, you know, together all together like wasn't all separated out and they had a very fast pace. So you kind of get into a groove, right?
Trevor McKee: Mhm. Mhm.
 
 
00:36:16
 
Rob McMullan: And are very David Lee Roth he's the the epitome of the confident rock star for example and and actually Eddie Van Halen who's a guitarist of that band similar kind of thing like they just they were very uninhibited people and unfortunately this can come off like they never would have survived in the business world like I think Roth or Ben Halen because you know kind of like there's some tension but they were not afraid
Trevor McKee: Yes. Yes.
Rob McMullan: to push the envelope and they get in a certain groove ultimately, but very productive, very prolific people. So, I I want us to all I want us as a society to be freer. as many of of you out there know, you know, I lived in Japan a long time, and, you know, I'm very fond of Japan, but it is far from perfect. And one of the the ways in which I've long thought Japan could be much more successful, not that I'm suggesting that they go towards say the American way or even the Canadian way of super individualistic and like too few rules, but they have too they're too rulebound in those societies like those homogeneous rulebound societies like South Korea or China or Japan in particular.
 
 
00:37:30
 
Rob McMullan: I think that's holding them back big time. And that's not to say they haven't made huge contributions to creativity. But, you know, there's there's something to be said for both, but the biggest I was just reading recently K-pop Demon Hunters is an animated movie animated musical really right on Netflix.
Trevor McKee: Yes.
Rob McMullan: It's their most popular English show ever. You know, that the songs off them went to like number one, number two on on the charts. And you know, I was so interested to find out who was behind this. And this woman, Kong is her last name. I can't remember her first name, but she's from Toronto. So, she came here from South Korea when she was five.
Trevor McKee: Good morning.
Rob McMullan: So, that's an interesting meld of cultural ideas. I'm sure like you know Koreans from my experience typically they're extremely hardworking, bright, highly educated people, right? Really very diligent. but you know that tends to not be the best environment for you know true innovative inventive creativity.
 
 
00:38:37
 
Rob McMullan: but you know she grew up in a very cos Toronto is arguably the most cosmopolitan city in the world. There are more languages spoken on the streets of Toronto than any other place in the world, right? And so she all these different ideas and the overarching kind of culture of individualism of Canada and the west. So what an interesting mixture. So she's obviously a genius, right? whereas I think frankly speaking you know had she stayed in in in Korea her whole life it would have been harder to be like that.
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: she would be an outlier anyway. So yeah.
Trevor McKee: actually the interesting thing about K-pop is that it was turned down by other I'm not sure if it was other streaming services or or turned down for you know from one of the major studios and then Netflix picked it up and then you know it's it's a it's a runaway hit kind of thing. So,
Rob McMullan: It is. It's very good.
 
 
00:39:29
 
Rob McMullan: I've watched most of it. We My wife and I, who is Korean, by the way, and been intimately watching it. It's terrific. Like, you know, it it's not it's not something that I would typically think to go after. Well, especially after I told you I like Van Halen. I like Van Hal, but I also like a lot of jazz. I like that kind of stuff. So, you know, at one point we're going to have some musicians on. and you know, maybe we'll get my old bandmate on who my my bass player who I'm looking forward to seeing in Paris next month. That'll be a hoot. but yeah, like carrying on with this creativity, what else? How what else can we do, Trevor? like because I I think it's very interesting coming from you and and tell me if I'm completely off base here but because I come from a family of engineers and you know you have an engineering PhD from
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
 
 
00:40:15
 
Trevor McKee: Mhm.
Rob McMullan: MIT no less. So you know in my experience a lot of times engineers are are you know you're necessarily highly analytical and you know deep in thought analyzing stuff right but then you know if you're creating something a new
Trevor McKee: Right.
Rob McMullan: if you're a scientist or if you're an engineer u maybe more so if you're a scientist but I guess you're also a scientist in a way right but you know you have the scientific method you have to have the hypothesis right you have to have an idea so I want you to expound on that a If you would
Trevor McKee: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think and I I think there's a lot of room for creativity even in a field such as engineering, you know, where maybe you're building a particular design for a a plant and you have to, you know, you have to fit a bunch of components into a limited space and then you know, and then and then you've got to get all of the flows right and everything working right correctly.
 
 
00:41:16
 
Trevor McKee: And and sometimes it does take a bit of lateral thinking you know to sort of think outside of the box of like well how do we actually solve this and I mean engineering is all about problem solving really. So I would say you know like even though I I don't do kind of the traditional engineering that that I I trained on in an undergraduate in terms of like you know figuring out flows between different um you know different mixing units and and all figuring out the thermodynamics of how the heat exchangers working everything else. even though I don't use those things, I still use kind of the the pro creative problem solving, you know, kind of ethos and thinking that went into well, how do we, you know, how do we again how do we solve a problem that is posed to us in a creative way by coming up with different iterations on designs? You know, I I think I mean my my kid just had an engineering class that he's working on today and it reminded me of one that I I took in high school that was that was fantastic and was taught by the you know the machine shop teacher and and it was just amazing because like it was just here's some cardboard come up with you know come up build a boat out of
 
 
00:42:37
 
Trevor McKee: cardboard that will survive you know one length of the pool. And and my friend and I did it by sort of like constructing the the inards and then painting it like six six or seven times and and it was this like sort of surfboard thing and it worked fantastically. Other people just like used a bunch of shrink wrap around a couple of hollow tubes and you know the same got the same result kind of thing. And and then I I was telling my my son about the my we had to build a tower out of pasta and see what would hold the most weight. And mine was sort of like spaghetti inside some or pasta and straws. So I had spaghetti inside some straws in this sort of like cube. And then the way it the way it failed is that it sort of twisted in on itself and collapsed because it didn't have enough cross braces. And the guy that won was just three sticks of ziti sort of super glued together with little cross braces of ziti.
 
 
00:43:37
 
Trevor McKee: And it held so much weight that like I think we ended up using all of all of the weights like you know that we had from the weight from the you know weightlifting room and it still didn't it still didn't fail. So then the shop teacher had to like smack on it, smack on the top with a hammer and it finally sort of failed by kind of exploding.
Rob McMullan: Yeah. I I I I don't remember. What is CD? Is it a Oh, okay.
Trevor McKee: Oh, Ziti is just like the round the the hollow tubes like penny penny pasta is sort of like the short version of it. but it was just yeah just a just a round hollow uh tube of of pasta of uncooked pasta that was just rigid and just just lasted. So if you ever need to build Yeah.
Rob McMullan: It's there's probably a lot there we could we could explore, but I think some of some some of that creativity even in those examples although like the stakes are not that high but there's a risk, right to there's a risk of embarrassment right if you choose the wrong kind of thing to build that it's going to utterly fail and that you might be a bit embarrassed but one of the ways in
 
 
00:44:47
 
Trevor McKee: Yes, exactly.
Rob McMullan: which I think people become smarter and more creative and learn more I think this is very important and I I am kind of known for this not not being afraid to ask questions or just throw out ideas that I I I'm pretty Sure. you know, a high percentage of which would be pretty ridiculous, but like there's often brilliance in the ridiculousness. So, you really need to shed that idea.
Trevor McKee: Yes.
Rob McMullan: Like, you if you're on a Zoom call with someone and you're talking about ideas and you've got this idea, but you think, you know, how is it going to be received? f*** it. Just say it, right? And then even if the idea is crap, it might lead to something somewhere.
Trevor McKee: Mhm. Yeah.
Rob McMullan: And you know this catalyzes thought. I really love the idea that you said that your friend has this makes regular time that they block out an hour to think it strangely enough and you don't know how these things are going to go together.
 
 
00:45:57
 
Rob McMullan: but as you were telling us that before I was thinking of the former prime minister of Canada still a beloved prime minister across the spectrum largely not everyone but Jean Kretchen. and Jean Richen I'll never forget I I I don't know where I read this but I'm careful of my sources and so it was a credible source it would have been but he would take again similarly through his day he would take that time he would set it aside I don't know how much of that was creative thinking per se but you know thinking of just to think because we have we're inundated
Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah.
Rob McMullan: with so many things in our lives like our personal family responsibilities our work respons our business responsibilities, you know, the messaging from a million channels on, you know, on a million formats. And so, just taking time to relax, whether it's to go for a walk or you have that time where you sit protect some time where you think I people don't it it sounds counterintuitive because our minds are going
 
 
00:46:54
 
Trevor McKee: Mhm. Well, yeah.
Rob McMullan: all the time, but people are not taking time to actually think as much as say a few decades ago. I really don't think so.
Trevor McKee: Yeah. And and I I mean it's not only think, but maybe have have that have a journal, have something in front of you that you can jot down notes, you know, because I think it's not only it's not only kind of doing that thinking, but it's also trying to capture some of those ideas kind of before they go. And I think I always walk around with a with a little notepad on my on me just in case something comes up of like, oh well, what about this? and so that I can capture it because I think definitely you know having and even setting up a system that where you can do that where you can have an ability to kind of capture ideas even ones that are crazy. I mean I I think I I will often hedge my bets when I'm when I'm speaking in a group of like maybe this is a crazy idea but you know which is sometimes Yeah.
 
 
00:47:56
 
Rob McMullan: Well, I mean that is one that is one way to protect yourself and still allow the idea come out like you know you're caught into the fact that it may be crazy so say it right okay whatever it
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: whatever gets you through but you know I'm I'm sure we've all been there where yes we were a bit reticent to say an idea because you thought well maybe this will be poorly received maybe it's kind of dumb And then people are like, I f****** love that idea. There w there was one recently in in our our kind of like our IV+ organization group for all like IV plus schools and you had added me to this WhatsApp group and it was like planning for the the holiday party and I had some thoughts about that which related to like you know everyone's trying all these expensive places like well you know I I did think at the time like maybe this is a bit nuts but like some ideas around doing it in an artist gallery and then getting them to donate and we get sponsors and stuff.
 
 
00:48:51
 
Rob McMullan: I'm like, you know, sometimes especially when you're in those rooms like, you know, it's filled with physically or virtually with people who are like alumni from the likes of of Yale and Harvard and MIT and Oxford and all those kind of people. Sometimes those people are not good critics, meaning they're critical. But I like again I just think you just got to do it. and you'll often be pleasantly surprised. You'll often be pleasantly surprised that the people you thought would have been very critical of something are very open to it. So I I think it's important.
Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah.
Rob McMullan: Another thing about creativity, I I really try to live my life to a large extent by this and I really believe this. The old Roman saying, I can't recall the Latin itself, but like fortune favors the bold, right?
Trevor McKee: Yep.
Rob McMullan: sometimes says fortune favors the brave but like bold bold ideas win particularly amid the in yet you got to break through like for years people know this about me like I I'm very good like in a business development
 
 
00:49:46
 
Trevor McKee: Virgil. Yes.
Rob McMullan: when I do my business development role trying to look for new partners like strategic partners or capital partners even like trying to raise money for people or try to get new clients and I'm reaching out people don't know like you know let's just send mass emails or emails or this kind of stuff or like you know just call well that's fine you can still do that. But I'm a big believer in sending dimensional mail. That alone is kind of bold. It's like, what the hell are you doing? Like, you're doing things as you're sending snail mail to people and then I will do dimensional mail. And one of my go-tos is like mailing a pair of socks to somebody and essentially saying you promise to if if you meet if you meet with us and promise to knock your socks off and here are the reasons why you want to meet with the firm. So those kinds of things, they break through. you have to break through. And I don't think AI is going to come up with those ideas.
 
 
00:50:42
 
Rob McMullan: It might rehash some things. So I guess it's a lazy way, but like I think we're going to short circuit ourselves if we rely on AI too much. I I think we're midstream figuring out how to use it. And I don't know the answers either. I am also concerned like everybody else like especially for the younger generations. What does it mean? What does it mean when AI can do the jobs of you know accountants and lawyers and even doctors to a large extent? So do we become redundant? Well, no. I think our jobs are going to have to necessarily change, but we're all going to have to up our game, right?
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: Like I don't know. And I think you you know in a world that's run by avaristic you know people with questionable ethics like Sam Alman who's was the who's the leader of open AI who does chat GPT and SOAR and all that. you know we're going to have to up our game and you know on that note it's just been a day or two since he announced that okay now it's okay even though we were so concerned about people's mental health and whatnot and coming off as good corporate citizens and yes we're a nonprofit.
 
 
00:51:47
 
Rob McMullan: is it now open AI is and Sam Alman has come out and said about oh, we're going to allow people to just just make pornography with AI. Like really I don't know. I don't see how this is being a good thing. But anyway, all these influences, these things are going to happen anyway. I guess that's the point I'm trying to make. And so, how how can we windend our way through them and be how can humans stay competitive?
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: at one point. I'd love to get Jeffrey Hinton on who's the godfather of AI, right? We're we're fortunate to have him here in Toronto. I think you have met him, have you not? Or you know people who Yeah, let's get him on.
Trevor McKee: A few times. Yes. At at at various speaking engagements and uh
Rob McMullan: I think he's I I think he he plays an important role like a cautionary role for AI, but at the same time, I think he may be a little bit too negative.
 
 
00:52:37
 
Rob McMullan: Like I want to have solutions for how we can deal with this. It's like, okay, you're negative. I get it. but you know just telling people who like Sam Alman who are making billions off of AI to you know be more responsible is probably not going to work. you know so how can we empower other people as individuals to take charge in knowing that we we're faced with the onslaught of AI and how does food does food have a role here that there's a left
Trevor McKee: Mhm.
Rob McMullan: turn. can it can you be more or less creative depending upon what you eat and what you like? Are there any real lessons in reality for how we deal with with AI and become more creative?
Trevor McKee: Well, I I think I think getting, you know, one element of creativity is is is sort of the willingness to embrace kind of new and different ideas.
Rob McMullan: Is Right.
Trevor McKee: And if that means, you know, maybe getting outside of your typical routine and and trying something new or even trying a new recipe, you know, sometimes that's a way to go about it.
 
 
00:53:44
 
Trevor McKee: And oftentimes even making food can be quite a creative experience, you know.
Rob McMullan: Oh, I love it. I love to cook and it's so much about the end result of the food.
Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah.
Rob McMullan: You know, here's why I love cooking and I totally encourage people and I agree with what you said it why you should cook is I almost never read from a recipe. So, it's a very creative thing. I deal with what I have in the fridge, in the cupboard. So, necessity is a mother of invention. It forces you to be creative. I try to teach my son this, you know, in the day and age where you can get a recipe just by speaking to your phone. I don't do that. Thanksgiving, like it's like, okay, how do I cook a turkey? I need to know how to do that. But yeah, go out go outside your routine. You just kind of do that. I was going to say a little on that point, very important point I think you made, Trevor, is to be more creative.
 
 
00:54:34
 
Rob McMullan: Go outside your typical routine. Eat something different, make something different, do something different, say something different.
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: but one of the things I occasionally do, and now that I'm saying it, I want to do it again today. every once in a while because our hands are so there's so many sensory receptors receptors in our hands, our fingers, and goes up to our brain. And you know, most people are not truly ambidextrous, right? They have a dominant hand. I'm right-handed. Every once in a while, I it will be, you know, days when I specifically use my left hand. And I this is probably stimulate I'm not a neuroscientist but I believe this is sim stimulating different different pathways in my brain. So you have so that's out of your routine right just start start using your your non-dominant hand once in a while.
Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Rob McMullan: You ever do that?
Trevor McKee: I not not as much as I probably, you know, should try, but yeah.
 
 
00:55:35
 
Rob McMullan: I'm I'm convinced I'm convinced it catalyzes some some new thinking in me.
Trevor McKee: I know I put Yeah.
Rob McMullan: Yeah, maybe someone can leave in the comments at some point like whether there's any actually research to to to give evidence to what I'm just saying. But yeah,
Trevor McKee: Yeah. But and and and I think it's also like you you need to there there's an element of creativity of creating a kind of safe space to make mistakes, you know, to to do things and not feel like you're going to be criticized for them, you know, and and then and that safety can take many aspects to it. I mean, you want to have you want to make sure that, of course, as with anything, you've had enough sleep. You've had you you've eaten, you you know, have have a good sort of foundation from which to sit down and and and and work on challenging things. And and the other element of it is challenge. So I think I I was I took a a course in flow and you know how to get yourself into a creative kind of flow state where you're just working and you're lost.
 
 
00:56:32
 
Rob McMullan: Right.
Trevor McKee: You lose track of time and you're just you know kind of doing what you want to do. and and there's an element of getting into a flow state of uh where it's you've got to face something that's a challenge, right? It can't be sort of an overwhelming challenge. It has to be sort of a manageable challenge, but something that challenges you to sort of push back and that's what initiates the flow state. But then also there's an element of of flow that's recovery. So you need to understand that you can't always be on and you know create coming up with all of this stuff. You need to give yourself time to recover. And I certainly noticed this after, you know, big conferences like there was a big conference last week even though I was in town. I I I had to sort of catch up on sleep and and you know kind of give myself some quiet time after that to kind of recoup and re-energize.
 
 
00:57:41
 
Trevor McKee: just because it's sort of like you're you're walking around, you're making introductions, you're you're pitching your you're you know startup 10 30 different times in a in an afternoon and and that drains energy. And so you need to be aware of kind of where you are, you know, in in in your state of mind and like some self-awareness of knowing that okay, maybe now isn't the isn't necessarily the time to sort of tackle that hard creative thing. Maybe I just need to take sort of, you know, a bit of time and relax and then before getting Mhm.
Rob McMullan: Go to the pool, go to the hot tub, you'll relax. I there there are different wavelengths that you bring, you know, runs on.
Trevor McKee: Yes.
Rob McMullan: which is why, you know, when when people are in the shower or when they get up first in the morning, I often have great ideas early in the morning, make sure you capture them.
Trevor McKee: Yes. Yes.
Rob McMullan: you need downtime.
Trevor McKee: Mhm.
Rob McMullan: I was I was just going to add to that like so much of what we've seen in the last five or 10 years particularly in things like the startup world right you see hustle culture and you see these influencers who are real you know proponents of this sort of thing and I think that's really counterproductive hustle all the time and especially in the age of increasing automation and AI I think it's not going to
 
 
00:58:52
 
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: work you're not going to be able to outwork that right so you need to take Trevor's advice here.
Trevor McKee: Right.
Rob McMullan: You need the downtime. You know, you need your sleep. You need to eat right. If you don't have the right nutrients, you're literally your brain's not going to be firing all the nerve cells properly. You're you're going to be pretty dull. We know that the right food and exercise actually makes you smarter. We know this exposure to sunlight.
Trevor McKee: Mhm.
Rob McMullan: Again, back to your thing, you know, walk.
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: We probably don't know exactly why that works. some of it's circadian rhythm and you know you're getting in again to rhythm. The brain and the body work on cycles off and on, right? It's not this hustle culture BS.
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: I think it's BS that that's I don't mean by this to say, you know, don't work reasonably hard, but like don't exhaust yourself. What's the point of that?
 
 
00:59:53
 
Rob McMullan: And if you're stuck in a job where it's always like that, leave.
Trevor McKee: Oh yeah. Yeah.
Rob McMullan: That's not doing the company any good and it's certainly not doing you any good.
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: But you know anything we say now I I think in five years time it's going to be double. what what about environment?
Trevor McKee: No, absolutely.
Rob McMullan: What about surrounding yourself with the right people as as a as a way toward becoming more creative? What do you suggest about that?
Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think it helps like I said to sort of suspend either suspend the criticism or or or kind of Yes. And right another great source of of of creativity is you think of improv comedians, right? And the whole concept in improv is is one of yes and you don't you don't say no to something that someone just said you yes and it you say yes you know oh I I saw a chicken walking across you know on the back of a donkey.
 
 
01:00:57
 
Trevor McKee: Yes. And the chicken was you know singing Shakespeare or singing.
Rob McMullan: Oh, here's a quick one.
Trevor McKee: So Mhm.
Rob McMullan: Here's a quick one for you. Okay. See how you respond. Why did the chicken cross the road?
Trevor McKee: Why?
Rob McMullan: Well, I don't know. I'm just making up. May maybe he he saw it he was walking down the road and he saw a Chick-fil-A and he was like I'm gonna I'm gonna go over there. I that's it's entirely stupid but you know I think who you surround yourself there's a failure as an example failure oh maybe somebody laughs so it's not a failure but I think you know boldness new ideas um
Trevor McKee: Yeah. create the creative process in in being demonstrated. Yes.
Rob McMullan: in creating environment I I I think you want to be around people that are uh disruptors to some degree rather than disruptive.
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: some people who have a sense of humor like you know if if you go in and you surround yourself in a room full of like analytical geniuses who are just going to be you know there's going to be that's not a recipe for creativity.
 
 
01:02:04
 
Rob McMullan: You you need some outliers. You need some dark horses or whatever that wild cards.
Trevor McKee: Mhm.
Rob McMullan: So, you know, maybe maybe it's a good idea to have a kind of if if not formally, informal kind of a a group.
Trevor McKee: Mhm.
Rob McMullan: I can't remember what what the word is for it, but you know, that group of people that you can talk to. And I also think don't just hang out with people who are like you.
Trevor McKee: Yes.
Rob McMullan: This super important like people who are older, younger.
Trevor McKee: Yes. Yes.
Rob McMullan: This is why I think companies that like, you know, tech companies are guilty of this a lot. Silicon Valley's fed us this BS for years that's like okay to be a successful startup you know you have to be all like you know under 25 and just throw some stuff at them and they'll be getting a hustle culture again that's utter nonsense and it's been disproven actually the most successful companies are started by people who are like over 45 but I would argue again even more successful will be a mixture of young and old from the the true important importance of diversity Right?
 
 
01:03:05
 
Rob McMullan: Not not to get the DEI stuff per se because like I'm also a believer in meritocracy.
Trevor McKee: Yes.
Rob McMullan: But I do think drawing inspiration from a variety of different sources and people have different experiences and they can come from things different angles that will catalyze a lot of genius thinking.
Trevor McKee: Yes.
Rob McMullan: So hang out with young people especially children because children have not become you know they've not absorbed all these rules yet. Like they color outside the lines. You said think outside of the box. Well I like to think outside of the triangle. Why even a box? f***. Why is it think outside of the box? Think outside of the sphere.
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: yeah, I think that's ultra important.
Trevor McKee: Yeah. Mhm.
Rob McMullan: And and do different stuff for, you know, just almost for the sake of doing something different like, hey, maybe I'll do this next time on a net podcast. Like part your hair the other way or, you know, go I used to have purple hair.
 
 
01:03:58
 
Rob McMullan: you know, years ago when I was in Tokyo for a while, I had purple hair and that was really a spontaneous thing. Be spontaneous.
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: Very important.
Trevor McKee: Yep.
Rob McMullan: Develop a sense of spontaneity and realize that, you know, at the end of the day, you're probably going to be still alive.
Trevor McKee: Yes.
Rob McMullan: What's the worst that can What's the worst that can happen?
Trevor McKee: No, and I think I've changed over over time where I used to be very deliberative about each decision that I made and over time I've sort of realized that okay well you know you can trust your gut. you can kind of just go with the first thing that pops into your head because oftentimes I mean oftentimes even the deliberative process you've already made that decision in the first five seconds and the your brain is just coming up with like your your logical brain is coming up with real for with reasons for why your sort of emotional brain met that decision in the first place. I think there's a there there's a there's a book called The Master and His Emissary.
 
 
01:04:57
 
Trevor McKee: that's all about this kind of thing of of your brain is sort of an you know, an elephant stomping around with like a a monkey on the on the back sort of trying to trying to wheel it in certain directions and the elephant is your sort of emotional intuitive brain and the monkey is the logical brain sort of trying to steer it in the right direction. So you know so often so and and and so realizing that okay you know like I I am there there there's there's a there's something to be said for a gut instinct you know and oftentimes when you meet someone for the first time you'll you'll get this sort of gut instinct of like oh okay and more often than not you know like your gut instinct is right and and and so it's useful to kind of tap into that tap into your ability to sort of make these instinctual decisions and try to use that a bit more. you know, maybe not all the time, not for maybe super important decisions, but like you know, start out slow and then and then you can grow and and oftentimes you'll you'll save a lot of time over sort of like, well, maybe should I, shouldn't I, you know?
 
 
01:06:11
 
Trevor McKee: you can fill the fill in the gaps. And I had a I heard I heard a great thing that I wanted to say is that someone said once creativity is a random walk in a in a highly confined space. So so because well or or or not maybe highly in a constrained space.
Rob McMullan: What? Why confined?
Trevor McKee: So like you know the constraints again on jazz is that it has to you know like if if there if there's two notes that are too wildly disjointed it's going to come off as jarring. So, you know, there's there's some, you know, there are again some rules that limit the the the the the universe of like beautiful melodies from the universe of disjoint sounds, you know.
Rob McMullan: Yeah.
Trevor McKee: but then within that you still can do you can still randomly walk within that space to come up with new things that that weren't done before, you know.
Rob McMullan: Yeah. Because otherwise we'd be still stuck in the 50s with jazz.
 
 
01:07:22
 
Rob McMullan: Some of which is great like Chad Baker and all those guys, but we wouldn't have acid jazz. we have you know some of this even though notwithstanding what I said earlier that I tend not to be a fan of rap and all that some of it where it's a fusion I've heard rap with jazz or rap with rock you know why not have a have a Van Halen like guitar solo in the middle of a jazz piece like what the hell like so what
Trevor McKee: And yeah, and I mean I I really I I I like certain elements of rap, but the things I really like about it is kind of is the word play, is the sort of, you know, coming uh kind of the flow of the jazz itself, of the rap itself. So, you know, there's there's there's elements to kind of enjoy from that
Rob McMullan: I like old school rap like you know when it first came out of the you know for wants a better word the ghettos the underprivileged areas of New York City and you know I I I believe a lot of times people were, you know, outside and in the cold.
 
 
01:08:22
 
Rob McMullan: I still have this image of like, you know, you have an old garbage can and there's a fire and they're standing around they're rapping and it had more meaning then, right? because rap became in the lyrics a reflection of their reality and it was kind of protest music was kind of like AfricanAmerican style answer to say British punk rock you know like that came out of the thatcher
Trevor McKee: Yeah, man.
Rob McMullan: area era and all that you know the irony stuff and a lot of that kind of was very harmful to England frankly I think that was the American version and you had bands like Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five and you know, White Line. I love that kind of stuff. Or even the Beasty Boys again out of New York. Like I love that kind of stuff. but in general, I don't like it and I think it's become a negative force.
Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Rob McMullan: But let's talk about music for a second. Creativity and music because a lot of people criticize modern music is very formulaic or you know kind of lacks soul.
 
 
01:09:22
 
Rob McMullan: a lot of musicians today and I think part of this came about when you know MTV in the US and much music in Canada like video came out like you know if you ever listen to some
Trevor McKee: Yeah, we didn't kill the radio star. Yeah.
Rob McMullan: Yeah. You know musicians from long ago you know of a song and then finally now you might look up on YouTube and you're like I love that bit. Wow that's what they look like. Well those people that look like that would not make it today. like you you have to have a nice flat stomach and you know you know you need to look sexy. no shade on Taylor Swift I think because I think she is quite talented but a lot of the musicians today the knock on them has been like a lot of them don't even play their own instruments. I know Taylor plays piano so she she's an outlier. and but you know you're not going to get the Van Halens.
 
 
01:10:13
 
Rob McMullan: It's not going to happen. You're not going to get nirvanas today. Do you have a couple of right
Trevor McKee: Well, and and and I mean there's there's a lot of artists nowadays that are fighting for you know, even sort of u health benefits. Well, certainly in the states, you know, like what do you do if you're a starving artist kind of thing and and you you have some medical issue, you know. So, there's a lot of artists that are kind of taking a stand and saying, "Look, we need some form of you know, at least benefits or security for young artists that are just starting out. or else we're just we're not going to have, you know, good artists emerging. Or the ones that emerge are going to be the ones that are, you know, have have sort of a family that can support them while they're while they're trying out these like creative endeavors or they Yeah.
Rob McMullan: or they have another job like they're a plumber, plumber by day and musical genius by evening.
 
 
01:11:08
 
Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Rob McMullan: Yeah. I I'm concerned about this like because I think it's a bit of a microcosm for the rest of society and the challenges we have with technology and not just the technology itself but like sort of the corporate culture
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: surrounding tech companies right and the fact that we've allowed you know runaway commentary on social media so like the likes of Facebook and and of course we have Spotify and dieser and all those you can get anything and so the artists are not getting paid much by that and unless become really famous, you're not going to make much money. It's I, you know, you used to be able to make a living as a musician, even if you weren't famous, right?
Trevor McKee: Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah.
Rob McMullan: That's that's cool. so I I I I don't I don't know the answer to that, but I do know that we're all going to have to become more creative. Maybe it's more creative across different occupations.
 
 
01:12:14
 
Rob McMullan: It's like I think in the future I I think necessarily a much higher proportion of us meaning working age people will will be forced into entrepreneurship of some sort right and and and this is going to be
Trevor McKee: Mhm. Mhm. Yeah.
Rob McMullan: a necessity I think that old large corporate model is is is going away and this is going to require reinvention all the time being create being truly creative I I don't think it's something that AI can really provide. Right. I I I don't know. I I want I want to say something important here. and that relates to creativity. And your t-shirt's a good example. You want to show land.
Trevor McKee: Yes. So, my my my brother loves sending me like these these these t-shirts. And this is a land seahorse.
Rob McMullan: Right. So that's kind of like I think of that as is kind of another way of saying you're a fish out of water. You're a horse out of water.
 
 
01:13:20
 
Trevor McKee: We're out of water. Yes. Yes.
Rob McMullan: Well, tell us about your brother. He seems to have a a sense of humor and maybe he's a bit
Trevor McKee: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, he's No, he's uh he's also amazing. So he's always been sort of on the artsy side like he was drawing all through high school and and then when he was trying to decide which degree program to go into he happened upon this thing called med medical illustration. and so yeah and and so then he you know got trained in a lot of learning about anatomy and the human body as well as as well as you know artistic illustration and and different sorts of elements and and he still does that. So he's you know right I think right now he's sort of working for an insurance company that's that and developing these sort of training materials for for them. But in the past he's done you know other sorts of things with in in medical legal work and and then even working in sort of the graphic arts department of a um
 
 
01:14:15
 
Rob McMullan: Okay.
Trevor McKee: of a kind of a hospital or a you know teaching hospital that had a lot of different uh people that were using you know the graphic arts department for help with like making figures and um
Rob McMullan: Cool.
Trevor McKee: that sort of stuff for for papers and things and and books.
Rob McMullan: You know, I seem to recall, you know, we have a friend in common, GA, you know, GA GA, who's this super smart woman. She she has she has a PhD from the Sarbon in Paris in in what is it something related to medical science and then she was she's been working in AI too. but I believe her husband is a medical illustrator as well. So I don't know where's your brother.
Trevor McKee: Okay.
Rob McMullan: Is he in Toronto or is he elsewhere?
Trevor McKee: No, don't. So, I mean we grew up in Buffalo, New York, and then he went to school at R8 in Rochester and then now he's now he's living in Texas with his family.
 
 
01:15:30
 
Rob McMullan: Oh, okay.
Trevor McKee: So, yeah.
Rob McMullan: All right. Okay. So, what do we want to leave folks with today? So, again, like, you know, if you have any specific tips for how we can all fight back against, you know, this generative AI and how it's really kind of stealing a lot of the creative jobs away from us. Like, how can we fight back against that? So audience members, I encourage you if you have those ideas to put them in there. And once again, you know, if you're super critical, we're going to delete your comments, so don't even go there. but we we we would love you to to come and visit us again. Thank you for today. and let's do something creative just before we go. So, let's do this. Let's play a little game, Trevor. I'm going to say a word, then you say a word, and we'll go back and forth a few times, and then let's see if we can come up with some kind of cogent, thing out of that.
 
 
01:16:18
 
Trevor McKee: sir beetle.
Rob McMullan: So, Volkswagen, mountain, Catholic priest.
Trevor McKee: What's that mountain? let's see. Snowcapped neuroscientist.
Rob McMullan: I say this because I met a Catholic priest the other day at this event, so it's in my head. Okay. So, what do you get when what happens when a So, no, let's start over again. Okay. A Catholic priest and a neuroscientist at the top of a mountain walk into the the to the chalet. What What happens dot dot dot? Okay, we'll leave it there. Audience, if you care to finish the the story, the joke, we would love to read that. But thank you again for being with us on High Octane Friends, Trevor. And we've got some exciting guests coming up in in some future episodes. So So check that out, you know. and it's Friday here in Toronto when we're recording this. So have a good weekend or if you're watching after, which you will, I hope you've had a good weekend.
 
 
01:17:46
 
Rob McMullan: Little bit of a time shift there.
Trevor McKee: Sounds good.
Rob McMullan: Bye folks.