Reversity and Exclusion

Rob McMullan, Trevor McKee, and guest Sheliza Jamal discuss the state of DEI (perhaps regrettably now more aptly described as "reversity and exclusion"), focusing on the challenges of implementing DEI, the concept of "reversity," and the impact of AI on bias and education. Sheliza, a Harvard aluma and founder of Curated Leadership (https://www.curatedleadership.com/sjamal-bio), shared her firm's work on inclusive workplace cultures and highlighted concerns about AI's potential to perpetuate existing biases, and the crew also discussed the need for increased cooperation and ethical regulation to mitigate the existential risks posed by Artificial General Intelligence (AGI).  It was a fun and insightful discussion about an important and dynamic issue.

The High Octane Friends podcast is where Rob McMullan & Trevor McKee discuss a variety of subjects in an authentic and unvarnished way.

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Transcript

Rob McMullan: Welcome back, High Octane friends, new and old. Uh, I think what are we now, Trevor? Are we episode 11 or 12?
Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Rob McMullan: Oh, okay.
Trevor McKee: On the 10th, we're we we're lucky number 10. So yes.
 
 
00:48:46
 
Rob McMullan: Okay, awesome. We got a we got a couple in the can though. So I I think we've seen a few more.
Trevor McKee: Yes, that would be fun.
Rob McMullan: And I I'm so looking forward to going to Paris next week. So I hopefully we won't be recording from a Parisian cafe, but that would be cool, right?
Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah.
Rob McMullan: Yes.
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: And I'm traveling with my lovely wife, which is always super lux because she's so spoiled. So I, you know, I love traveling with her. anyway, so okay, welcome back. We've got a really good conversation and topic here today which really is very apppropo and a terrific guest and so tentatively we've titled this we'll see if it h if it makes it to the final cut but reversity and exclusion what is that and so we have Shalisa Jamal did I pronounce that right Shalisa okay and so she she has some expertise in in diversity diversity  equality and exclusion and all that surrounds that
 
 
00:49:38
 
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah. Shalita Jamal. Yeah.
Rob McMullan: and I'm sure lots of other other stuff going on. You're also pregnant. We just found this out or at least I did. So, if your water There you go.
Trevor McKee: Wow. Wow.
Rob McMullan: If your water breaks If your water breaks during it, then this might have to carry on with a part two, right?
Sheliza Jamal: That'll be a fun episode.
Rob McMullan: Yes, it would be.
Trevor McKee: Breaking news.
Rob McMullan: Yeah, it's literally breaking news. Um, well, let's let's let's hope that doesn't happen, I guess, right now. Um, but Trevor, do you want to say a few words before we get Shalisa to kind of comment and we can get going?
Trevor McKee: Yeah, sure. I think yeah, just just to say that I think Shoulies and I we we've met a few times at at the Harvard entrepreneur kind of mixer events and had some great conversations there and really looking forward to kind of yeah just discussing you know like and I I think for me the the thing that I wanted to kind of get into is you know that that this can be quite a divisive topic but there's kind of there's a silent majority of people that don't have extreme views one way or the other that you know I think we want to try to try to speak towards.
 
 
00:50:59
 
Trevor McKee: So I thought yeah I thought it would be great to kind of start the conversation there. So  Selles, if if yeah, if you don't mind  yeah, just letting us know your background and and we can go from there.
Sheliza Jamal: Absolutely. Thank you so much, Trevor. So, my name is Shalisa Jamal, as Rob said, and I'm the founder and executive director for Curated Leadership, which is a coaching firm where we work with organizations to create workplace cultures that are more inclusive and belonging through the principles of diversity, equity, and inclusion. And it's called created leadership because I'm a theater artist by trade, studied theater since I was about three years old. and I started doing DEI work, which was not called that at the time, in the theater. So that's the curate part and the ed part is because I've been a teacher for over 16 years. And so I use kind of both those lenses, the theater arts and the education to really create experiences for folks to learn, listen, and move the dial around issues around anti-racism and anti-opression.
 
 
00:51:57
 
Trevor McKee: Awesome.
Sheliza Jamal: So that's a little bit about me.
Trevor McKee: Awesome.
Rob McMullan: So that's cool.
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: So you you're a teacher and in the theater arts. This is all pretty new to me. That that's awesome. I I remember in high school taking theater arts and that was so much fun.
Sheliza Jamal: Mhm.
Rob McMullan: And I remember my teacher saying, "Well, you seem to have a natural gift for this. I wish id pursued it in retrospect but here we are but you know again so high octane friends our audience out there and people who come to our events past and future this this is the type
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: of people we get and why we call it high octane friends like I think really interesting people so this is a this is a very big conversation right now we were just talking before we hit record I was suggesting to you Shaliza that you know it shows like the HB like to the HBO one Silicon Valley are really good kind of jumping off points to talk about the current state of of of diversity
 
 
00:53:03
 
Sheliza Jamal: H. Mhm.
Rob McMullan: if you will and you had not seen that. I'm surprised that you hadn't seen it, but you know, it's full of characters that are, you know, probably not the best of Silicon Valley, right? It's fair to say, right, Trevor? Like, they're basically the worst people ever.
Trevor McKee: Yeah. Well, well, well, it's I mean it's it's a it's a take up, right? So, so there are, you know, it's the prototypical sort of like, you know, nerd with poor social skills and yeah, or or several of different flavors.
Rob McMullan: Yeah. Several. Who's your favorite? I I know we're talking about something you don't really know know about Chelsea, but Trevor, who's your favorite character on that? Do you have a favorite character?
Trevor McKee: Um, I I think I like well I I have actually a favorite scene which was um Gilfoil built this AI that was supposed to optimize everything and he he put it in charge of of of I think refactoring the codebase and then it just deleted the entire codebase because it was so full of bugs that it was like this is the cleanest way to sort of clean this And then and then and then it was but it was it was sort of preient because you know it was 10 years ago and now now we're we're seeing AI sort of you know bleed into real world applications and um
 
 
00:54:18
 
Sheliza Jamal: Absolutely.
Trevor McKee: and you know I I guess there's there's a a real challenge there that maybe we can start with that you know that that one big problem with AI is that it's trained on data right and the data can have bias biases in it and then that those those biases sort of come along with. So then you know so so so AI mortgage lenders will h have some of the same inherent biases that were present before before the the you know just in in the data itself and and really monitoring for that. So I think that's you know that that's definitely one big part of of you know the modern day is is is accounting for and correcting for those biases.
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah.
Trevor McKee: I don't know. Yeah, Shalisa if you have Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah. I actually did a workshop on ethical AI a couple weeks ago and we were talking about this idea that AI is only as unbiased as its creators. So whoever is creating that AI if they have biases those biases are going into them.
 
 
00:55:33
 
Sheliza Jamal: And for example, if we're talking about chat GPT, which is a very popular you know AI generator here, chat GPT is actually the free one at least is generated by your idea.
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: So what you give it is kind of what it feeds and it learns. So it's not only the programmers but then people who are putting in information in there also have biases and are putting information in there and so it generally does have bias within it, right?
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: and we can't erase like histories of oppression and bias that people have and then putting it into the system that's going worldwide. So that's the really big problem with it. Also the other issue is you know if you've seen the documentary on Netflix called coded bias there is also bias in terms of artificial intelligence that speeds up productivity. So, facial recognition  security software  you know, the case in Canada with Clear View and and their bias against their AI work.
Trevor McKee: Right.
Sheliza Jamal: So, a lot of these things are showing up as yes, AI speeds up productivity.
 
 
00:56:42
 
Sheliza Jamal: I love AI. It helps me generate quick ideas, but then we have to also be able to use our own critical thinking to break it up. And that doesn't always happen, right? So, I think it's such a catch 22. speeds up things and then it also slows things down. But I think the key thing is it's only as good as its maker, right? And then and what we put in there.
Trevor McKee: Absolutely.
Sheliza Jamal: So it is definitely difficult.
Trevor McKee: Mhm.
Sheliza Jamal: And I found that AI kind of takes sides. Like if you ask it a question, it will take sides. Like I bet if we like type something up about Trump or something, it'll give us a perspective. And it's interesting.
Trevor McKee: Right. Right.
Sheliza Jamal: It's like where does that perspective come from?
Trevor McKee: Mhm. Mhm.
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: Well, I'm sure some of that perspective very recently comes from pressure that the current US US administration and President Trump himself have put on these companies, right?
 
 
00:57:35
 
Sheliza Jamal: Right.
Rob McMullan: they you know some of them like who's the guy I can't remember or Mark Beni off the CEO and founder of Salesforce who was known as like sort of the the the liberal the real sil Silicon Valley liberal billionaire and now he's like he most recently was controversially heard saying like oh yeah like I'm totally okay with with the National Guard coming in bringing troops to San Francisco what the f*** but you know I
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: I I think these people clearly have been influenced by what's going on. I wanted to pick up on a little bit more of what you said there. You're talking about like AI and how yes, it's accelerating productivity.
Sheliza Jamal: Heat.
Rob McMullan: I think it's accelerating and magnifying everything, the good, the bad.
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah. Yeah.
Rob McMullan: You know, it's kind of like a it's kind of like the new new take on what Mark Zuckerberg had famously said for years when you're when you're doing a startup, which is to, you know, he's exhorting his people that work with him in forum to move fast and break things, which has now become increasingly it's becoming move fast and destroy things.
 
 
00:58:42
 
Rob McMullan: Like I was at the the Hinton lectures and there was a fireside chat last week with Jeffrey Hinton who's the you know known as the godfather, certainly one of the three godfathers of AI.
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: and last year's Nobel laurate in that and it was really fascinating to hear him talk about how he thought very quite strongly that there you know meaning I think he said there's a five to if I remember correctly there's a 5 to 20% probability he believes in the next 10 years first of all he believes agentic AI sorry not agent what is it artificial general intelligence like the super being will come into existence
Sheliza Jamal: Mhm.
Trevor McKee: That's superb.
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: within the next decade at that time and thereafter he believes there's a 5 to 20% chance that this will this will ultimately ensue in you know like in extinction of humanity partially or fully so super scary and I
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: was telling Trevor by the way interestingly it's something I posted about the day after you know it was last Wednesday I posted last Thursday the day after over breakfast something I wrote within half an hour most successful post I've ever huge huge reach, right?
 
 
00:59:55
 
Rob McMullan: Like I was scrambling to keep up with this like oh wow. So people are concerned about this and yet last night I went to another event which was AI ostensibly at least initially in the context of fintech you know fintech who I shall not name although they did terrific job and then of course these things morph into more broad discussion about what does this mean for people honestly there were big gaps in in that and and you know so for example there were two panels in
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: the second panel panel, one of the audience members asked them, they said, "Do you think we're moving too fast with this AI development?" Right?
Sheliza Jamal: One more.
Rob McMullan: And one person who talked very intelligently, but then they all kind of echoed it and they were they had difficulty articulating two things. A what's glaringly missing and whether they think we're moving too fast. the the definitive answer from them was no, we're we are not moving too fast. It's like well excuse me you know I think when you've got development of agentic AI and then finally AGI and you know in the context of how it can be applied to things like financial services which was their main thing but also health care and education which you would care about.
 
 
01:01:17
 
Rob McMullan: I think some caution is warranted and you know taken that regulated industries like finance they they in many ways they are overregulated but in this case we need to be cautious.
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah.
Trevor McKee: Mhm.
Sheliza Jamal: Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean when you talk about education I I I was marking like I was taing a university course and it's like I don't know what is your work or what is AI and then I recently saw something because you know you can tell when there's bullets and lots of hyphens and my friend recently posted something on her story that said it was like a joke apology from chat GPT.
Trevor McKee: Right.
Sheliza Jamal: Sorry for all the m hyphens overusing that Trevor.
Trevor McKee: and and yes,
Sheliza Jamal: we've been overusing them and we're going to recalculate our algorithms to change the way we type. But anyways, my I digress. The point is that we don't know what is true knowledge and what is not. And so for me, it's like the fear of being replaced is real.
 
 
01:02:16
 
Sheliza Jamal: And if people are coming to work and they don't actually know what they're doing, but they're getting by with Chad GPT, how do we know what people know? And what's point of knowledge?
Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: Like I just worry like, you know, if we can't check or enforce like I use some online checkers, right? But if we can't check or enforce through plagiarism checkers like turn it in university papers like what is the point of academia? You know what I mean?
Trevor McKee: Right.
Sheliza Jamal: Think about that.
Trevor McKee: Right.
Sheliza Jamal: Like as I finish my PhD like I try not to even look at ideas on chatb because I feel like I'm going to be a phony. But that's what I think. A lot of people are getting by with jobs, job interviews, anything using artificial intelligence to fill in their skills gap. So for me, I'm just concerned about that as an ethical issue too. Like where do we go from there, you know?
Trevor McKee: Yeah. No, absolutely.
 
 
01:03:15
 
Sheliza Jamal: because that is that is a big issue as well. Like it's it's an equity issue. It's an issue of identity fraud even like you know we don't we don't know what do you know? What do you not know? If you can check up everything on chatbt.
Rob McMullan: Yeah. So, it's it's kind of we're going into this this, you know, there's an ethical crisis. There's ultimately, you know, some a lot of people will disagree and and call people alarmist for saying so, but like Jeffrey Hinton is saying, like this could be an existential crisis for us, but it is a it's a culture of identity. It's a culture of au it's a sorry, it's a crisis of identity and it's a crisis of authenticity. You know, like there's a this can lead to a degradation of trust. Like, you know, the so-called AI slop and you as an educator would see that. I I have a suggestion for you for what it's worth and you know you may already have thought about it but and and and a prediction of sorts where I think education will and perhaps should go and that is like I think a lot of it has to be taken offline and a lot of it has to be real time education.
 
 
01:04:16
 
Sheliza Jamal: Mhm.
Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah.
Rob McMullan: So, you know, it's like, okay, instead of saying, and of course, sadly, this makes, you know, the workload of teachers ever more difficult, but it's like somehow we're going to have to do things where it's going to be, you know, okay, you do an essay, you got the 50 minute class or whatever it is. It's like you're doing an essay right now and you're going to put away all your devices.
Sheliza Jamal: But then it goes back to like wrote learning. It goes back to like reverting all these learning systems and learning strategies. So, but I agree, right? It's like you read this book and then you do this activity and we're taking away technology which was enhancing learning and helping especially folks with learning disabilities and neurodeiverse people who need computer assisted software but then how do
Trevor McKee: Well, yeah. Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: you get around it? So I feel like we're going backwards, you know, and True, true.
Rob McMullan: Well, I I I think all progress kind of, you know, doesn't go in a straight line necessarily.
 
 
01:05:12
 
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah, true.
Rob McMullan: so Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: But it's like you got to do these things to mitigate, but then there are like the the only thing I think of in this is the equity issue that there are people who really do need assist of technology,
Trevor McKee: Yes.
Sheliza Jamal: who need software, who need computers.
Trevor McKee: Yes.
Sheliza Jamal: And so this is where it's you know just like other technologies as you just kind of mentioned people take advantage right and the people who are offering power and privilege who have power and privilege who don't need assistive technology are the ones who are using chat GPT to get all these fancy jobs and do all this fancy work and and other people are falling behind Right.
Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and and I mean like there there's also something to be said for maybe just you know I mean maybe it's a naive thing to say but like um some element of trust you know just like sit sit the kids down at the beginning of term and say hey look you know like you can you can go ahead and use those things but it's really not going to be beneficial to you at the end of the day you know and and you I think that was even a part of what what Hinton said towards the end was like I think he was asked what what would you what would your
 
 
01:06:22
 
Trevor McKee: advice be to someone who's about to go into college or university and he said like he said you you want to you want to learn how to think and learning how to think is you know as is an important part of your education and to the extent that we can you know encourage kids to see education as a you know as as a value as something that that gives you beneficial
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah.
Trevor McKee: returns, you know, is is one potential way of of of combating, you know, all of this stuff with Yeah, you could you could be you could use that stuff to to get to get all of your
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah.
Trevor McKee: work done, but you're not going to you're not going to learn anything from it and you're going to be wasting wasting everybody's time.
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah.
Trevor McKee: And and when it comes to, you know, needing to do something later on, you're going to you're going to struggle u versus versus doing the hard work yourself. and you will, you know, you will get the reward kind of thing.
 
 
01:07:23
 
Sheliza Jamal: Absolutely. What scares me about that, Trevor, is I've been having conversations with youth in high school and university and some of them just don't care to learn. They just about money.
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: They're seeing Instagram and they're seeing Tik Tok and they're seeing like, oh, influencer status and that's all they care about, which really does scare me.
Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.
Sheliza Jamal: like feel like that wasn't part of our childhood or my upbringing or my university.
Trevor McKee: Yes.
Sheliza Jamal: But some of them don't even care to learn. They just care about the end goal and they have very shortterm thinking.
Trevor McKee: Right.
Sheliza Jamal: So that's the other thing that really worries me with all of this stuff happening around, you know, the the fights or the attacks on DEI is that we're moving towards this very superficial society and culture.
Trevor McKee: Right. Right. Right.
Sheliza Jamal: What really scares me?
Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah.
Rob McMullan: and a polarized a polarized culture too.
 
 
01:08:19
 
Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah.
Rob McMullan: We've seen definitely right like there we it was mentioned earlier I think Trevor you said something about kind of like the people in the middle who don't hold extreme views and you know it strikes me as like kind
Sheliza Jamal: Wow.
Rob McMullan: of a Buddhist philosophy is you know like which is go the middle way. I've tried to teach my son this. We have one 20-year-old and I hope he's like that, but you know, I was just saying before we got on, sometimes I spot little words that that seems like a really far right opinion or you know, whatever end of the spectrum you're at, I think you should be more in the middle way. I I'm hope I'm hoping that I'm wrong by that. But, you know, these these people somehow seep into the minds and the lexicons even of of these teenagers and young people. And it's kind of well, this is not too strong a word, disgusting. I I think it's disgusting. They I am 100% convinced that they're targeting people like my son, you know, and they're just making them angry.
 
 
01:09:18
 
Rob McMullan: You were angry. Were you when you were a teenager? Like maybe I'm a day and a half at least older than you, but I don't remember being, you know, generally angry when I was a teenager. Like these are good times.
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah, I think generally good times. I think there was a lot of like racism in the community that like angered us or like you know like I grew up in a time like Reena Verk and I were the same age so I grew up in Vancouver. Reena Verk was a a young South Asian woman you know going through regular teenage stuff and she was growing up in Duncan on the island in Victoria Vancouver Island and she was beaten to death by her white classmate. So, you've probably heard about this case. And so, those are the kind of things that we got angry about, but what we did about that was very different. You know, we didn't necessarily hold rallies and protests, but my class, we wrote a play about it, you know  and we called it bullying at the time, which we now know as racism.
 
 
01:10:09
 
Trevor McKee: Oh, wow. Mhm.
Sheliza Jamal: So, I feel like we were angered about those things, but we did it in a different way. Like, you know, we had petty anger issues, like, you know, really high school drama, but it wasn't like this today.
Rob McMullan: Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: I do see though young people today being very much into advocacy like social advocacy, politics and advocacy.
Trevor McKee: Yes. Yes.
Sheliza Jamal: And I feel like that's what gives me hope. Like they're they are really about DEI. They're not going to back down. They're not going to be sucker punched. They're not going to be pushed down. They're not going to let their views subside. Um, and I feel like I'm kind of more like you, Rob, where I'm like, okay, like let's let's go to this middle way here. Doesn't have to be so extreme that you got to go on like a hunger strike, but it doesn't have to be on this side either.
Rob McMullan: Yeah.
Trevor McKee: Right.
Sheliza Jamal: Um, and I can't tell you how many chat groups I'm in. It's like, let's do this, let's do this, let's protest this, let's do this.
 
 
01:11:08
 
Sheliza Jamal: And I'm just like, I don't know how how y'all have this energy for this.
Rob McMullan: And maybe maybe I would suggest too perhaps or you know I'm I'm speculating but I would suggest some of the people that say those sorts of things.
Sheliza Jamal: I know that. Yeah.
Rob McMullan: Hey let's protest and do they've never been in a real riot. I have had tear gas like I've been in riots in South Korea.
Sheliza Jamal: Wow.
Rob McMullan: Scary as f***.
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: And oh if you haven't been by the way tear gas super hurts. I wasn't like I you know literally you know not to derail this conversation on that but you know I literally this is years ago in the late 90s and I like literally I just came out of the subway
Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah.
Rob McMullan: somewhere and I didn't really know the city that well I came out from out of the subway and it's like there's helicopters military there's people throwing rocks there's there's tear gas like what the hell awful maybe those people
 
 
01:11:57
 
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: don't know what that's really like and maybe they shouldn't
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah. And I think I think they do exercise their like right to freedom and right to you know freedom of speech and all that kind of stuff and peaceful protest but sometimes I think their energies are in the wrong place you know like like and sometimes not.
Trevor McKee: Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, a lot of times it can be a little there can be an element of performative kind of uh protest, right?
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah. And like for me like I want that big strategy. I think like, you know, a little thing is not going to move the dial as much as systemic change. And that's like what I'm worried about right now, like the way the world is going.
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: And, you know, not to kind of change subjects, but something come up for me is when we think about like diversity, equity, inclusion work.
 
 
01:12:47
 
Sheliza Jamal: Um, and you talked about reversity, right? If if our topic is diversity and exclusion, I'm seeing so many companies reversing their mandates, their mission, their commitment, their strategy to anti-racism, anti-opression, anti-black racism.
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: And for me, it's that same thing. It's that when you want to be like, "Okay, we're going to go do this because it's the flavor of the month and oh, our organization, better tackle on because there's going to be a protest or there's going to be a an injunction or there's going to be a what are those things called where they sign off petition?
Rob McMullan: petition.
Sheliza Jamal: There's going to be a petition, right?
Trevor McKee: Yes. Yes.
Sheliza Jamal: There's going to be something. So, we want to be in a good light." And now it's like big companies like you know I won't name them maybe all but big companies are like firing all their DEI people. They're not giving any funds.
Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: Like Telus Health is not doing any more DEI offerings.
 
 
01:13:45
 
Sheliza Jamal: Like they're they're falling into market because they don't need to do those things anymore. So it was like were they ever committed? And so that's the same thing as like have you been in a riot? Do you know what it's like? Do you know the commitment it needs? or are you just trying to get a petition done and have this little check mark? Right? So, I think it's that's systemic change versus like a one-off thing.
Rob McMullan: What's Yeah, some some of it is literally getting a check mark and you even know this as an educator.
Trevor McKee: Right. Right.
Sheliza Jamal: And and I think the reversity is happening because people were just following trends and trying to be influencers.
Trevor McKee: Yes. Right. Right. Right.
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: It's like, you know, like if you're applying to university, like college or grad school or whatever, it's like, yeah, you have to have done certain things.
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: And so, you know, you you have to question sometimes the extent to which people's hearts are really in this.
 
 
01:14:35
 
Rob McMullan: And I would also say about like the reversity part of DEI. It's like, you know, I you know, taking the other side, at least devil's advocate for a second, like, you know, just to establish I am firmly in the middle view. I'm not extreme in any way. but I do I do think you know and people sometimes how can I say this? So I think some people erroneously or not feel a bit left out of the DEI thing because you know maybe they are the majority. You were talking about the US for example in the in the in the white population and usually it's white men but it is white women too.
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: Um, and so they they might feel like, you know, they're being replaced or they're being put down or they're not being heard anymore. Um, and they don't want to be force-fed stuff, right? Like I do think gradual change generally leads to better systemic and long-term change.
Sheliza Jamal: Okay.
Rob McMullan: I I tend to think that way, right?
 
 
01:15:35
 
Rob McMullan: If you if you change anything suddenly like I lived in Asia for a long time and primarily in in Tokyo and Japan and Seoul as well and these are largely very homogeneous societies right like if you took soul and my wife is Korean by the way so I know Koreans very well if if you suddenly said okay in a place like Japan or Korea they have a even more aging population than we do here I think Japan is the fastest aging population on earth if you suddenly said Well, you know, the government a government government comes in and says, "We're going to change this. We're going to like make 15% of our population suddenly immigrants. That's how we're going to change it." Well, I don't care what society you're on Earth. If you change that rapidly, that to that extent, you're going to have you're going to have riots actually. And you know, as outsiders, you could comment, oh, you know, they're so this or that.
Sheliza Jamal: Okay.
Rob McMullan: They're not progressive. Like, you got to progress at the right rate.
 
 
01:16:30
 
Rob McMullan: I think if we ask too much of certain people that we whom we disagree with, I think you're probably going to get a bad outcome. You're going to get a you're going to get reversity, right?
Sheliza Jamal: Mhm.
Rob McMullan: Which is regrettable and and and counterproductive to your long-term gains. And so, it's not so much the what, you know, the what being that we want to have more diversity of thought of people, of opinions, backgrounds.
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
Rob McMullan: It's the how. I think the difficulty is always the how. People don't talk about the how. They talk about the what. and let's problematic
Sheliza Jamal: But but I think so there's a couple things I disagree with because the how is that we know it's diverse, right? So in Canada it's about 49 sometimes a little bit lower percentage of people of color. only 9 to 11% both in Canada of the US are black folks but there's an overexaggeration of the population of black folks for example because of racist statistics for example but I think we have to look back and this is just this is my perspective here that Canada and the US were both indigenous lands you know colonized and founded on on colonization and oppression but in Canada specifically We are a nation of immigrants,
 
 
01:17:44
 
Sheliza Jamal: right? And so for me, it's like, okay, this isn't a new thing, but it's about people losing power.
Trevor McKee: Mhm.
Sheliza Jamal: And we see very visually what happens when someone like Elon Musk or Trump feel like they're losing a little bit of power, they go crazy. And that is like that is defi definition of white privilege, right?
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: It's not a person doesn't matter if you're white or not. It's about that power and privilege, right? white supremacy is impacts white people and non-white people. And so I think what it is is people are comfortable with diversity, right? We know that people are diverse, neurodeivergent  you know, sexually diverse, sex, different sexual orientations, 2 LGBTQIA plus, different racial, ethnic backgrounds.
Trevor McKee: Mhm. Mhm.
Rob McMullan: Anyone want to share?
Sheliza Jamal: We accept that. But what we can't always accept is inclusion. And that's because people don't want to lose a piece of the pie, right?
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: They don't want to lose Yeah, they don't want to lose a piece of their wealth.
 
 
01:18:38
 
Trevor McKee: Yeah. It's it's a zero sum game sort of Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: And then back to what you said, Rob, is like that how is the hard part because if I'm sitting here as a top 1% white man CEO in North America, why would I want to give up a piece
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: of the pie? What is the benefit to me?
Trevor McKee: Mhm.
Sheliza Jamal: And so that's what you're seeing in real time with a dictator in the US. Like it's happening in front of us. And so that's the how piece. How are people gonna give up things? And I think that he appeals to the poor workingclass white folks who are a lot majority because they've always been left behind because the rich people don't want to give back to them either.
Rob McMullan: Right.
Trevor McKee: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: So he appeals to them.
Rob McMullan: But they want to they want to be seen as that as part of that upper echelon.
Sheliza Jamal: Yes.
Rob McMullan: Right.
Sheliza Jamal: Exactly.
 
 
01:19:32
 
Trevor McKee: Yes. Yes.
Sheliza Jamal: And so what happens is rhetoric that Trump says like, "Oh, DEI is divisive is true because you're dividing yourself from the rich and the poor and we're creating all these divides." Um, so it works. It works to tear people apart. And I think that it makes people focus on all of that stuff rather than what's true. Like for example, in his national address, I think it was in January or February, he said something like the government is spending $5 million on transgender mice and trans.
Trevor McKee: Oh god. Yes. Yes.
Rob McMullan: I didn't know the
Trevor McKee: It was it that was Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: And how many people believe that, right?
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: But it was transgenic mice.
Trevor McKee: Jennick. Yes.
Sheliza Jamal: And do we think that he actually made a mistake or he said that on purpose? Like, do we think he's smart enough?
Trevor McKee: Oh, yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: Let me take a poll here, Trevor and Rob. Do you think he was smart enough to make that mistake on purpose or did he make it by accident?
 
 
01:20:27
 
Trevor McKee: No, I I I think it was very deliberate. Yeah. Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: Right. So, he's very smart and he's doing that to then cause this hate amongst people who are not from an educated class to know and have those critical thinking skills to think about that, right?
Trevor McKee: Mhm.
Sheliza Jamal: And it's I just started laughing because I was like, come on, that's for like cancer research, you know?
Trevor McKee: Yeah. Well, yeah. Yeah. No, I Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: and then funds that whole department. So anyways, I guess I'm thinking about like what you said, Rob, is like that how and then there's all this noise by the wealthy who don't want to let go of things. And so I think the DEI barrier is more about classism, you know.
Rob McMullan: Yes, I agree.
Trevor McKee: Mhm. Mhm.
Rob McMullan: I absolutely agree with that.
Trevor McKee: Mhm.
Rob McMullan: And but you know I want to inject a little optimism into this because as concerning as it can be you know when we're right in the midst of this that reversity and exclusion kind of thing and this
 
 
01:21:13
 
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: in so many other ways you know and how I just read this morning that Copenhagen Denmark Copenhagen for God's sake probably the most one of the most liberal places on earth has been for 100 years and now
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: it's looking like their city government at least is going to go far right. My god.
Sheliza Jamal: Okay.
Rob McMullan: So, you know, things have have gone so far, but like I want to be a little bit optimistic. So, even even with Mr. Donald Trump I think you know he will do some positive things either overtly by plan positive but perhaps more so he will act as an agent as you know you how you develop pearls you know maybe not so much pearls of wisdom but pearls developed by that gritty sand you know so
Trevor McKee: an irritance. Yeah. Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: like more you mean like more unity like a lot of people are coming together. We're seeing like more of the majority in the in the US example like you know white folks coming up and standing up.
 
 
01:22:19
 
Trevor McKee: Mhm.
Sheliza Jamal: we're seeing more I think young people getting involved.
Trevor McKee: Mhm.
Sheliza Jamal: I think we're seeing we're seeing some people standing up right and and speaking out especially people with power and and privilege. But yeah, I mean I I just don't know. I I like the optimism, but I just don't trust his power. I know that we're not in the States, but
Rob McMullan: No, no, nor do I. But I mean, I honestly don't think Donald Trump is particularly unique in this. There are there are politicians for millennia that have used divisive speeches and attitudes to kind of, you know, get things. He's not unique, you know, on on whatever side of the thing.
Trevor McKee: Mhm.
Rob McMullan: But what I'm trying to say I guess is essentially like it's sparking conversations like the one even we're having today and the I am optimistic generally I don't know the time frame of this but you know wherever we
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah, absolutely.
Rob McMullan: are whatever end of the spectrum we're at the pendulum will ultimately if it swings too far one way it'll go the other way and I hope it doesn't get to the country right I I suspect it'll have something
 
 
01:23:22
 
Trevor McKee: Oh, you froze. Uh, you just froze for the last second there.
Sheliza Jamal: You hope it don't get it doesn't get Robin me.
Rob McMullan: to do you're gonna laugh it'll have something to do with smoked meat. What a AI, i.e. bacon. you know, the price of bacon specifically, right? When people will start to realize, hey, hey, Glattus, weren't we just paying like $2? I don't even know. This is sad that I don't know this. The Wasn't it like 50 cents for a pound of bacon?
Trevor McKee: You're show you're you're showing your privilege, Rob.
Rob McMullan: I am. I am.
Sheliza Jamal: I can tell you how much turkey bacon costs. It used to be $3.99 and now it's 5 to6.99 for a bowl pack of turkey bacon.
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: There you go. So, it's turkey bacon even, you know, gobble gobble.
Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah.
Rob McMullan: That's what ultimately people will, you know, kind of wake up, right? Whatever end of the spectrum you listen to and people, some people really wobble.
 
 
01:24:20
 
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: They're going to at the end of the day, they're going to look at their lives and going to realize, oh, you know what?
Trevor McKee: Mhm.
Rob McMullan: I just realized, hey, I'm not a multi-millionaire billionaire and I actually do now notice and care about the price of turkey bacon or whatever your essentials are. I think that's what's going to turn the tide.
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah, right.
Trevor McKee: and and we're see we're seeing a little bit of that happen already. Yeah. But umh yes.
Sheliza Jamal: Like in New York, right, with Lauren McInney at being the mayor and you know, hopefully he shifts the dial a little bit. And I heard one CNN correspondent saying, "Well, people are going to be moving out of New York now because this guy is mayor." Well, good riddens. Get out.
Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: Get out. Even better. You want to sell out?
Rob McMullan: Yeah.
Trevor McKee: Yes.
Sheliza Jamal: Get out.
Rob McMullan: Can I say my joke?
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
 
 
01:25:04
 
Rob McMullan: Can I say my one New York joke?
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: So, you know, I I lived in New York for a bit and you know, somebody on this panel, either one of you may get this.
Sheliza Jamal: I love you.
Rob McMullan: Yeah. There's only one thing wrong with New York.
Trevor McKee: That was
Rob McMullan: New Yorkers. I mean, just the stereotypical ones that, you know, elbow you out of the the way when you're you're walking down the street.
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah. Avenue.
Rob McMullan: Yeah, like those I had words with a guy once like he was pushing me out like like what the hell man like what it's like never been to New York before buddy? I'm like oh man classic. So yeah like whatever we're going to get change and not that suggesting change for change's sake is good but I I am generally optimistic.
Trevor McKee: Yeah. Mhm.
Rob McMullan: I don't know what the time frame is. I think we're we're in the midst of a lot of tumultu right now aren't we?
 
 
01:25:48
 
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah. Yeah. I know. And I I hear you. I just feel so sad when I see these ICE raids like in Chicago, in New York, you know, in LA and and it just it feels like we're back in the 80s, you know, and its Yeah.
Trevor McKee: Oh. No. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Or or the 60s even, you know, like Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: And I feel like it's really hard, right?
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: and and you know, we had riots in the 90s with Rodney King and his beating and all that happening and I feel like we're there.
Trevor McKee: It is.
Rob McMullan: Yeah.
Trevor McKee: Mhm.
Sheliza Jamal: But what I'm hopeful for, Rob, is that I think people are going to come together even more because we know better.
Rob McMullan: Yes, I think so.
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: And you know, I I have some faith in Americans and you know, this may shock you. Um, you know, I have some some faith even in Donald Trump. He's not my favorite person, but he's not my least favorite person either for whatever there's a big thing.
 
 
01:26:41
 
Sheliza Jamal: Your least favorite person. I want to know.
Rob McMullan: Well, no. I just I like for example, I mean, you know, Barack Obama, who I loved, you know, or or even George Bush Jr., whatever is the right way to like these people in many ways, did lots of really bad
Sheliza Jamal: bad things.
Rob McMullan: things and the rhetoric didn't match thing.
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: But, you know, at least at least, maybe I can't say this past another month because who knows, they may invade Venezuela. I may have to eat my words, but you know, he does he does seem to hold back a bit on like physically invading country. He does a lot. He seems to be weaponizing.
Sheliza Jamal: Yes, but it is kind of illegal. I mean, I won't say what I wish happens, but I mean, he does do illegal things and we know it's why Guyana has oil. Venezuela is close to Guyana. It's a way for him to get money.
Rob McMullan: America's done it forever. America has done this forever.
 
 
01:27:32
 
Sheliza Jamal: It's Yeah.
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: Yep.
Trevor McKee: Yeah, that's true.
Rob McMullan: And they can deny it now. Okay. So I want to be a voice of positivity a little bit or inject a little you know I'm sure like we all went to school in the US too like we had work with and have tons of great
Sheliza Jamal: Okay.
Rob McMullan: American friends who are you know super nice people super great people super well you know I've been to I've been non-liberal places that you know have lovely people and and good people and I think the vast majority
Trevor McKee: Mhm.
Sheliza Jamal: only because in Boston in Boston everyone is liberal.
Trevor McKee: Good. The Yeah. Yeah.
Rob McMullan: of Americans are really good people and in the grand scheme of things if you look around at other places in the world there are places in the world where you know candidly on average I'm sorry but I'm not going to name those places maybe you can draw it out of me but you know there are some places in the world where the people are really on average to put it mildly not very good people right
 
 
01:28:26
 
Trevor McKee: Mhm.
Rob McMullan: like for whatever reasons you know they've been kind of brainwashed by their their kings or whatever these are these are not good people and I I I wouldn't put Americans on average in that pot, right?
Trevor McKee: Mhm. Well, yeah. Yeah. I I think I think you know like the way I would phrase it is that like you know Americans are generally good when you when you get to know them one-on-one, right? And I think that the the challenge comes is with all of this this this kind of rhetoric and the the stirring up and the the Fox News and the and the politicization of these things, you know, that that I mean, I think what did it say that like at the same time as all of these ICE raids are happening, the one group that they're give they're giving asylum to is white South African farmers.
Rob McMullan: Oh yeah.
Trevor McKee: And it's just like, you know, and and and I mean, Shaliz, I don't know if you knew this, but I'm I'm originally from South Africa, so I I Yeah.
 
 
01:29:22
 
Sheliza Jamal: Okay. I didn't know that. Yeah. Oh, I have a whose dad was an ANC who's u activist with ANC and had to leave the country, you know.
Trevor McKee: So, so I I I grew up there. And like, yes, South Africa has its problems, but one of them is not the, you know, like what what he's doing is he's taking Oh my Oh my god. Yeah. Yeah. Um, exactly.
Sheliza Jamal: But that that's the kind of thing that's that's harmful, right?
Trevor McKee: Yeah. And and and what he's doing is he's taking an extreme like left-wing view of some of some extreme South African politicians and making it as if that's what's happening. And like it's not. It's clearly not. And there's even been, you know, like a consortium of white South African farmers saying, "Look, this is not happening." But but still it's just something that you know it's it's this red button topic that he can push that that you know that that that gives him some talking point to to get people distracted from
 
 
01:30:13
 
Sheliza Jamal: Right. Yeah.
Trevor McKee: the realities of the fact that like most of the you know like the vast majority of of people in like regular people in the US are worse off than when he became president.
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah.
Trevor McKee: And Mhm.
Sheliza Jamal: But it's not even happening only there. Like I see it happening in Congo, in Sudan, of course, Palestine and even in India.
Trevor McKee: Mhm.
Sheliza Jamal: Like I was talking to some friends and thinking about like Hindu nationalism is nationalism is on the rise.
Trevor McKee: Oh, wow.
Rob McMullan: Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: We're not talking about that, right?
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: How many Muslim and Sik people are being murdered like the the legacies of colonization that are now ingrained in these people with power.
Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah. Yes.
Sheliza Jamal: I was talking to a friend I don't I don't know.
Trevor McKee: Yes. It's
Rob McMullan: Like Modi, who's who's worse? Like Like we're kind of I mean Mod's not Yeah, I wouldn't have a beer with Modi.
 
 
01:31:08
 
Rob McMullan: f*** off.
Sheliza Jamal: Well, I was talking I was talking to a friend about this like who because I'm twice removed from India.
Rob McMullan: No thanks.
Sheliza Jamal: Like my great-grandparents are from India, so I don't have any real connection. I don't really know the politics. So, a friend of mine is from India.
Trevor McKee: Mhm.
Sheliza Jamal: We were talking over dinner and she was saying like she's Hindu and she's like, "He's a dangerous person." And I said, "Well, there's so many people. How
Rob McMullan: Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: are they voting for him?" He's like, "Well, he's a popular party." And her husband said to me, "He's going to poor farmers who make $20 a month and giving them money or a bottle of whiskey. Vote
Trevor McKee: Right.
Sheliza Jamal: for me. They're going to vote for him." And
Rob McMullan: Yeah.
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: also he he creates division by, you know, staging I know I'm saying this out loud, but whatever. Staging like terrorist acts to put Muslim Hindus against each other, but he's the one creating the terrorist Yeah, like like the train on fire in Gujarat or like the hotel in in in Mumbai, things like that.
 
 
01:31:56
 
Rob McMullan: Yeah, he's reportedly been involved or are Yeah.
Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: But he'll do those things. And for me, that's even more dangerous because he's creating division that was from 700 years ago. Colonizers left, there was a huge partition, million people died. And we're talking about that. And I was talking to I was at an event MCing an event with Dr. Lubani who worked in Gaza. And he was talking about India. And I it just it put it back in my head that he's like we don't talk about India and this huge genocide that occurred there through this division of lines genocide that happened here in Canada.
Rob McMullan: Yeah.
Trevor McKee: Yes. Yes. Yes. Mhm.
Sheliza Jamal: Indigenous peoples from many different nations which were like just pushed here and there. Like my family's from Kenya, same thing happened there, right? You have the Messiah and and other other tribes, right? who were kind of put in different areas that they weren't traditionally living in. And then you create chaos, right?
 
 
01:32:58
 
Sheliza Jamal: Not only from the resources, but but everything.
Trevor McKee: Mhm.
Sheliza Jamal: And so I feel like when you say it that way, Trump ain't that bad, but he's bad.
Trevor McKee: It's still bad. Yes.
Rob McMullan: Look, I'm being nice. He's not my favorite person, but he's not
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah. But people are people are saying like, you know, there was just a declaration that, oh, Trump can make decisions over Gaza and Palestine. That's like ridiculous. But then the positive is that guess what? The city shut down the indictment yesterday and the Palestinian flag went up in Toronto. It went up in Montreal, went up in Winnipeg, it went up in Calgary. So these are small winds. Like a flag is so small, but it's so symbolic, right?
Trevor McKee: Mhm. Mhm.
Sheliza Jamal: thinking about these things, but I am still afraid because you know for someone to have enough power to go to someone else's territory and ocean and just randomly kill people in the water, you know, that scares me
 
 
01:33:54
 
Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: because that could be us. We could get invaded anytime. We don't really have a good army here.
Rob McMullan: So yeah, and I I would say This is not so much about Donald Trump or even Mark Carney or Modi or whoever you know whatever.
Trevor McKee: Mhm. Mhm. Mhm.
Rob McMullan: I think it's a lot about the human condition and AI is challenging humanity right now and we're gonna we're gonna like we never have been before.
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: we never will be before because we're going to have to figure out how to be less tribal, how to cooperate, not put ourselves in different camps.
Trevor McKee: Mhm. Mhm.
Sheliza Jamal: Okay.
Trevor McKee: Mhm.
Rob McMullan: Like you, you know, my wife was telling me recently, she she goes into the states a lot, like almost every other week.
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: She was kind of surprised at at how people in business, they they will start in their speech say, "I'm a Republican or I'm a Democrat." We typically don't do that in Canada.
 
 
01:34:49
 
Trevor McKee: Yes. Yes.
Rob McMullan: So, we're a little bit more I guess inclusive is a word, but I think it's more cooperative. You know, we No, it's it's not really maybe it's not polite or it's just not the way we are.
Sheliza Jamal: I think we're late.
Trevor McKee: Mhm.
Sheliza Jamal: We don't talk politics still, but
Rob McMullan: And so, I think we need to figure out a way in the face of the threat from AGI ultimately to be less tribalistic. This is part of the
Sheliza Jamal: about power and I feel like it's about power and control. I think I we've been so ingrained with the p I think the power and control is where everything stems from.
Trevor McKee: Mhm.
Sheliza Jamal: Even with AI, it's about that power and control over what AI generator we're using. power and control about what we know and information going in there. I feel like it's that I feel like those are the things that are controlling us and moving us away from humanity. It's power and control.
Rob McMullan: Yes.
 
 
01:35:42
 
Rob McMullan: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Do you think we're going to are are you at all optimistic that we're going to get some, you know, ethical AI regulation, some guard rails in the next few years before it's too freaking late?
Sheliza Jamal: I am because of what the of the Clear View case, right? And I think Canada is kind of watching that. I just think that I know this might not be the answer you're looking for, but like for me, I think it's about education first. I think we need to be educated and when I talk to, you know, intergenerational workplaces, I talk about let's get educated about what AI is and how we can use it in a positive way so that we do
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: have these guard rails. So, you know, in the workshop I did, I said, well, you don't want to put anyone's personal information in there because that's now public.
Trevor McKee: Mhm.
Sheliza Jamal: you know, you definitely don't want to put any indigenous elders stories or things like that in there because then they can get twisted and moved around.
 
 
01:36:31
 
Sheliza Jamal: So, you want to make sure that those guardrails are there. But I think that even on some AI tools it says like always check accuracy and and I think it's about educating people from a young age like as young as five I think they should be educated on
Trevor McKee: Yes. Yes.
Sheliza Jamal: how to use AI how to use you know how not to plagiarize how to you know what I taught was I said you always should have a human- centered approach like it should always there should always
Trevor McKee: Mhm. Yeah. Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: be like a human check after after using AI because it's not human, you know.
Trevor McKee: Absolutely. Sorry, Shaliz, you mentioned the clear clear view case and I don't know that I actually saw that.
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah.
Trevor McKee: Do you mind giving a quick Yeah, no problem.
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah. Let me let me look it up for you because I need more details. It's in my notes here. So, I'm going to read the statement to you.
 
 
01:37:17
 
Sheliza Jamal: Please hold.
Rob McMullan: I think is is I I don't know it either. So So thanks for asking that, Trevor.
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah, no problem. I'm gonna I'm gonna just pull it up here.
Rob McMullan: I think Clear View isn't clear view the company the background check company or something.
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah. And so they were using AI. I'm just to I'm gonna open this.
Rob McMullan: Okay.
Trevor McKee: Oh, okay. Okay.
Sheliza Jamal: I'm just going to read some notes that I wrote here about it.
Rob McMullan: Are they Canadian?
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah. And they have some conglomerates in the in the UK and the and the US as well. So that was that was the issue here. Okay. So clear view. We can edit this out. Okay. Um, where's my clear view? Um, I will tell you a stat that I found. 74% of Canadians are worried about AI generated fake content. Um, the AI keeps growing 74. Yeah.
Trevor McKee: Mhm.
 
 
01:38:11
 
Rob McMullan: So 26% that tells me on the the convers 26 26% are not worried about it.
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah. Those are the people who have probably they have No, they have stocks and bonds in it.
Rob McMullan: Alzheimer's Oh, yeah.
Trevor McKee: This stuff's in it. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Rob McMullan: Self-interest. I gota shareholder.
Sheliza Jamal: Where's my interview case? Hold on. H so bad here. I'm just trying to look at my notes.
Trevor McKee: No problem.
Rob McMullan: Well, we'll we'll let you find that. We don't we don't want to Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah, you keep talking.
Rob McMullan: We don't want to We don't want to have
Sheliza Jamal: Oh, here. Got it. Got it. Got it. Got it. Okay. So Clear View AI case involves multiple lawsuits and investigations regarding its facial recognition technology which scrapes billions of images from the internet to create a database sold to law enforcement. So basically they had got wrong data and if you think about Briana Taylor this is probably similar case that happened Brianna Taylor's death right.
 
 
01:39:01
 
Trevor McKee: Right. Right.
Sheliza Jamal: So companies like Clear View have been found to violate privacy laws in several jurisdictions including Canada and Europe for collecting, using, and disclosing personal information without consent. These cases explore the legal boundaries of online data collection and the application of privacy laws to foreign companies that target users. Um, so the it's the Canadian privacy commissioners found the AI mass scraping was unlawful from clear view. and a good anchor for why we have to keep data dignity front and center. Those are my notes.
Rob McMullan: I I think in cases like that that's a that's a good example you know and part of regulation is you know ultimately a holding people accountable for when they break the laws that are there which will ultimately be
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: there and are already there. The people that do those sorts of things, they some of them need to go to jail.
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah. Well, but but the thing is you sign away. Okay. So for Instagram, you may not if you're if you're a teenager, you're not reading all those papers that you're signing.
 
 
01:39:59
 
Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: I'm not even reading them. So my friends say to me, "Hey, you should be really careful about posting your daughter because people can take pictures of my daughter, generate them into like a 20-year-old and put them on p*** sites, put them on ads, whatever. But by putting pictures on Instagram and Facebook and Twitter and Tik Tok, you're giving them permission to use your image.
Trevor McKee: Mhm.
Rob McMullan: Well, I don't know. I I I don't know if that's really Maybe that's true today, but I'm not sure that will hold.
Trevor McKee: Well, yeah.
Rob McMullan: I think these things are going to be challenged because you know when it's only a tiny number well I know it's it's awful and and these cases but I think the problem is they're tiny numbers and again it's
Sheliza Jamal: No, you find out. You find out, Rob.
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: the pendulum thing I think things are going to have to get so out of whack sadly super sadly and enough people you know are personally affected or know people that are affect change we hit a tipping point and
 
 
01:40:49
 
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah. Yeah.
Rob McMullan: I think that's why I'm optimistic and sad at the same time that's so weird It's I think we're close to that tipping point where enough people are affected by this whether it's the price of turkey bacon or it's
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: you know someone they know whose daughter is on there or you know who knows maybe I'm a star on a p*** site somewhere
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah. See, like even cyber bullying, right? There are a lot of documentary cases about cyber bullying and and you know folks completing suicide because of that but still Instagram and Facebook and Tik Tok are quite popular because of their clout right like so that's that's
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: the hard part because we know these things are bad but they're also making money so people Yeah.
Trevor McKee: Mhm.
Rob McMullan: Yeah.
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: I think let me ask you on a very practical level perhaps like okay let's say in in in three years from now we have a change of government in the United States which you know affects so
 
 
01:41:43
 
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: many of our lives for better. Do you think there's a change in government to to you know where the Democrats have significant power and certainly in in the in the White House? Do you think at that point you know are the Democrats going to reverse a lot of this stuff? That's the goodness of reversity.
Sheliza Jamal: So, we've been talking about this with a lot of my friends and they say that, well, we all talk about that it's going to take a long time. It's not going to happen overnight. But then I say, well, he did it overnight. Why can't we reverse it overnight? But I think you're going to have a camp of people who don't want it to be reversed because they've just gained all this power.
Rob McMullan: Yeah. Right.
Trevor McKee: Right. Right.
Sheliza Jamal: they're not going to want unless they're dead, like they're very old people and they're dead. They're not going to want to give up that power. And so that's when I think you're going to have more attention again.
 
 
01:42:41
 
Sheliza Jamal: But like I think back to things like under Biden, abortion became illegal.
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: So that's not something that was a Republican thing.
Trevor McKee: Mhm. Mhm.
Sheliza Jamal: That was a Democratic thing.
Rob McMullan: Right.
Sheliza Jamal: And that's so backwards. So we have to still acknowledge some of those things.
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: you know and gender equality which is going down the s***. So my short answer is I don't think it'll happen overnight. I think it should, but I don't think it will unless we have like a Bernie Sanders type person in there.
Trevor McKee: No. Yeah.
Rob McMullan: Well, we need we need a perhaps we need a 35year-old Bernie Sanders.
Trevor McKee: and
Sheliza Jamal: Maybe right.
Rob McMullan: I'm not trying to be agist. It's just I want I want someone like Bernie to have a little bit more of a runway, which I he may not.
Sheliza Jamal: This is the thing. This is the thing, right? like if I I'm I'm going back to go forward.
 
 
01:43:34
 
Sheliza Jamal: But even with Trump, you know, farmers, Latin Americans, like Latinx folks, Mexicans, brown people, brown as in me, South Asian, they all voted for him because he gave a promise.
Trevor McKee: yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Rob McMullan: Yeah.
Trevor McKee: Mhm.
Sheliza Jamal: He didn't keep that promise. Obviously, they're crying. But in the same way, I don't think the Democrats are that great. they're better, but will they reverse things? I think it depends on who is in the government, who who are those senators, who are the the people in the party.
Trevor McKee: Yeah. Mhm.
Sheliza Jamal: maybe they've gained some power and privilege from what Trump is doing and they don't want to lose it either, right? All these pardons and all these judges vanishing or being fired, you know? I think Yeah. Um, I also want to say I agree with both of you that when I go to the States only for work now, mostly to Boston, it doesn't feel that bad except for the really crazy infomercials on TV on
 
 
01:44:37
 
Trevor McKee: Oh, yes.
Sheliza Jamal: the radio. Sorry. To like  this person was from this country and they murdered this person. Help us by reporting your neighbor and help ICE with the fight. That's the only weird thing that I've heard on the radio which people scoff at.
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: Other than that, life is happening as normal, right?
Rob McMullan: Yeah.
Trevor McKee: Right. Right. Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: Like I mean even with I I talked to a friend at MIT about the DEIB efforts and she said we've been doing diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging for years and it's just not called that.
Trevor McKee: Mhm.
Sheliza Jamal: Who cares, right?
Rob McMullan: Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: Still happening. We still help firstg students, newcomers.
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: we still have funding all this stuff. We just don't have to call it that. And I think that's where we have to lean into. So why not just belonging, right?
Rob McMullan: Let's call a new freight.
Trevor McKee: Mhm.
Rob McMullan: I like that.
 
 
01:45:25
 
Rob McMullan: Why not just belonging?
Sheliza Jamal: Or but even it doesn't matter what you call it. Whatever you call it, just do the work.
Trevor McKee: Right. Right. Right.
Rob McMullan: Yeah.
Trevor McKee: Yes.
Sheliza Jamal: but yeah, so my long answer to your short question is I don't think they're going to reverse it overnight.
Trevor McKee: Yes.
Sheliza Jamal: I think that's what I would want and hope, right?
Trevor McKee: No. Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: But I think damage is done because people have had a taste of power.
Trevor McKee: Yeah. But I mean like that's happened in the past as well, right?
Sheliza Jamal: Well, yeah.
Trevor McKee: And and I think I I do think that like I'm encouraged by seeing these like the the no kings protests and like the number the numbers of just the sheer numbers of people that are coming out to say hey look this is not something I I stand for.
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah.
Trevor McKee: And you know I think I I think hopefully what one thing that could actually make an impact would be you know just I mean the the the the fact that there's still an electoral college and there's like you know 100 senators and 250 or however many Congress people that that are making all of these decisions.
 
 
01:46:34
 
Trevor McKee: you know in in the 21st century when we've got like electronic voting and people could vote on you know on on whatever sort of thing that comes up you know that that that there's so much room for innovation in the political sphere that you know maybe this is a tech you know tech tech person's view but you know I I think I think that that's potentially another way of going about it is
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah. Yeah.
Trevor McKee: saying like why don't we just take try and take the power more directly into the hands of the people that are actually affected by these things and not not something else. So yeah.
Rob McMullan: Not not just not just electing representatives who continually what other whatever side of the spectrum continually seem to disappoint us as the elector.
Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah.
Trevor McKee: Well, I think I think it's just that that again power corrupts and and you know Yeah.
Rob McMullan: Yes, I think you're right.
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah. That's pessimistic.
 
 
01:47:27
 
Sheliza Jamal: That's where I'm pessimistic. Even in Canada, I feel like it's a recycling of the same status quo. It's kind of like government procurement.
Trevor McKee: Yes.
Sheliza Jamal: it's like drawn out and it is the same old and there's nothing that changes.
Trevor McKee: Yes. Yes.
Sheliza Jamal: Um, you know, and I so that's where I just have a bit of pessimism there. I just I think that we need 10 years to get out of this. I know that's a long time, but I feel like a 10 year low that's going to happen and in 10 years it's going to be better.
Rob McMullan: Yeah.
Trevor McKee: Mhm.
Sheliza Jamal: And I think that's also history, right?
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: That's how it's kind of ebbed and flowed for history.
Trevor McKee: Yeah. And for sure.
Rob McMullan: Yeah.
Trevor McKee: For sure. Yeah.
Rob McMullan: So I think I think you know collaboration is is
Trevor McKee: But but there's also stuff that we we can do. I mean maybe maybe this is something to talk about is like what can people do as individuals or as like maybe small companies to to to have a positive effect on you know on on these sorts of
 
 
01:48:08
 
Sheliza Jamal: Yes. Yeah.
Trevor McKee: topics. Um
Rob McMullan: what we need more of and cooperation and so like how do you do that and I think a small thing people can do is they can just like talk to other people that maybe normally wouldn't be in their
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: orbit. Like a couple years ago, my wife and I and and our son, we moved to an area that's, you know, very heavily populated. My neighbors are are Jewish, right? And like I can go a couple of blocks over and it's Orthodox. Like these are, you know, and and I am the kind of person who likes to walk a lot and I will talk with people. It's probably the Irish in me. I just like to talk. And you know, that's amazing what you can learn. And you know, a lot of fears and negative biases can come from just your own ignorance and just your lack of experience. So you talk to people, you real, oh, it's like, you know, if if you ever if you had any sort of tinge of negativity about it, that can be cleared up a lot just by talking with people.
 
 
01:49:29
 
Rob McMullan: So, I think people need to get out of their little bubbles, their communities, and they need to talk with other people. You know, talk with someone who's from a different background than you or, you know, like I think it's a very simple but very important thing on mass that would make a huge difference and it would help get us
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah. Yeah.
Rob McMullan: out of this tribalism.
Sheliza Jamal: Yes. And I think we have to also acknowledge that like anti-opression discrimination is not only personal, cultural, but also structural. So I think that helps with that personal piece to start shifting our minds as individuals getting to know people. you know for me I work with workplaces to talk about intercultural awareness like the differences between cultures and how we can adapt and work together and create inclusive workplaces. That's kind of work I do. So that's the personal level. And then it's like shifting the culture of our communities of our organizations and then structurally is part of our voting power.
Trevor McKee: Yeah.
 
 
01:50:23
 
Sheliza Jamal: I think I would say the personal is what you talked about Rob and then it's the cultural our shifts in our organizations and how how we do things and then the structural is we can have an effect there
Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: slowly but surely that system systemic ways that we can vote and we can the dial that way and and understand that equality is here is where inequality is is present.
Rob McMullan: Yeah.
Trevor McKee: Mhm.
Sheliza Jamal: We need to disrupt that through personal, cultural and structural disruption.
Trevor McKee: Mhm. Thanks. Yeah. Yeah.
Rob McMullan: 100%. Well, guys, I'm you know, you can carry on if you wish. Unfortunately, today I'm a little bit in a weird situation. I have to travel and I have to leave in a few minutes. So, I'm going to I'm going to exit off it.
Sheliza Jamal: No worries.
Trevor McKee: I think I think I think we've done pretty well.
Rob McMullan: I don't know if Trevor or you guys want to carry on or Yeah, it's about the time we usually do it.
 
 
01:51:16
 
Trevor McKee: We we we're just just past an hour. So yeah, I think that's Yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah, my main message is just that diversity is not equal to inclusion and we want to create senses of belonging for people because that is the biggest piece. When people don't feel included or there's a fear of losing something, whether that's money or status or a place in society, that's when we get divisive. So everybody every human being wants to feel like they belong.
Rob McMullan: Yeah.
Trevor McKee: Yeah. Yeah.
Rob McMullan: Yes.
Trevor McKee: Mhm.
Sheliza Jamal: So we have those conversations and create that space to include people and make them feel like they belong. that will minimize some of their fears and the threats right to really create maybe.
Trevor McKee: Amazing. Yeah.
Rob McMullan: Yeah.
Trevor McKee: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Rob McMullan: Maybe belonging is the word of the day. Okay. Well, thank you for belonging as a as a guest at least to our episode today.
Sheliza Jamal: Thank you Rob.
 
 
01:52:03
 
Sheliza Jamal: Thank you.
Rob McMullan: This has been really good and I think really important and you know one one of the better ones we've done so far. So, thank you. I'm sure it won't be the last Well, I hope it won't be the last time we we speak Shalisa on this and maybe other things as well. So yeah, thank you very much and yeah, okay.
Trevor McKee: Yes. And we'll make sure to put a a link to curated leadership. There's a great blog.
Sheliza Jamal: Oh, thank you.
Trevor McKee: you guys have some some great articles I was looking at earlier. So yeah.
Sheliza Jamal: Thank you so much.
Trevor McKee: Yeah, we'll do Yes.
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah, I hope you got some good content for our listeners. Thank you for listening.
Rob McMullan: Yes, thank you. Hi Octane friends, new and old, although we haven't been going that long and we're gonna blow off soon with your help. So  hit that like or subscribe or forward it to that.
Sheliza Jamal: Yes, no pun intended.
Rob McMullan: Yeah, forward it to that weird friend if you wish.
Sheliza Jamal: Yeah.
Rob McMullan: Okay.
Trevor McKee: Awesome.
Rob McMullan: Thank you.
Sheliza Jamal: Thank you folks.
Rob McMullan: Bye.
Sheliza Jamal: Have a lovely day.
Rob McMullan: You too.